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Subject: Random Roles Discworld 17er 3 rss

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As for my "instigating" the Samool lynch, this is what I had to say about that accusation previously:

Rhanddom wrote:
Aumerle wrote:
So I looked back at Samool related stuff from yesterday.

Preface - this is semi-useless. The problem here is we don't know Rob's alignment and if Rob is indeed good, which is what I currently think (while re-reading the day I saw a lot of what looked like frustration at trying to get support from other good players and failing - sorry I didn't pick up on that during the day, Rob!) then there was no reason to push Samool at all as evil because the only other person with more than 1 vote was dejo with 2 and it became clear quickly that she wasn't in contention.

But anyway, I'll continue because I made the effort so why not -

These are my notes, I probably missed some stuff and may have mis-characterized some stuff, this is not intended to be perfect:

D3 Samool train notes - (in order of the day)

Dejo states she doesn’t think Samool is evil
Irina comes in at 1am and votes Samool
Then at 9am ortho quotes and agrees with irina
Lemon at 10:55 (2nd vote)
Paper - samool isn’t a wolf
Rob - samool most likely wolf
Rhand - brings up samool
Kuchick asks paper why he’s sure samool isn’t a wolf
Samool calls Rob evil
Irina - SAMOOL
Rhand - calls out Samool for a perspective slip on saying “blocked”
Dejo says she doesn’t see that as a slip
Ortho then calls Samool evil
I like that Irina then makes a comment about only being right 30% of the time
Rhand votes him (3rd) (tie with Rob now)
Irina moves off to dejo (2:15)
Tanner makes a comment and Samool replies with “since when did you think I was evil”
Tanner then votes Samool
Irina votes Samool again
Dejo on Samool
Samool says to look into rorab, whirling and ortho
Rob on Samool
Ortho on Samool (crosspost with the Rob vote)

Complete gut take if evil made this happen is that Tanner/Rhand seem most suspicious.

Rhand goes out of his way to bring to attention the "block" comment from back in D2 when Samool's attempt to chat with me didn't happen and gets things going at a critical moment. Samool himself seems suspicious of Tanner and I would agree that when his vote joined it seemed a bit random, he hadn't really been contributing to the discussion before that comment/vote.

Finally I'd also throw dejo in there as she specifically said that she didn't think he was evil much earlier on in the day and also said she didn't see the "block" thing as a slip, but voted him anyway. People change their minds, but that's what I got from that.

If I were to nightfall on someone purely from this it would be Tanner. His voting there definitely pinged me, and I'd like to honor that Samool listed him as one of the 3 people he was suspicious of as well.

I probably won't do that though since we have no info on the other people up for lynch there.

It wasn't about "block". Samool specifically guessed Magrat Garlick. And I don't see how he could have gotten there without first seeing the paragraph about how "No Result" could mean any sort of block, or Nanny Ogg, or Bursar. He wasn't Bursar because he had a chat with Raven. But it beggars belief that he would have jumped specifically to Margat Garlick, which is what Raven actually flipped, by any "let's look at the OP to see what happened" process. Evidently that's what happened. But I just cannot manage to inhabit that point of view. That much is on me. But misrepresenting what I was struck by doesn't help anybody.

To which I will add, this was my actual vote:
Rhanddom wrote:
[vote Samool] more because I like the company than because of the Magrat Garlick business. Fishy as all get out, though.


The company, at the time, was Irina and nolemon. It was 22 minutes till lynch. Here's the resulting tally (via VoteViewer, which subs DMDupree in for Rorab retroactively):

VoteViewer wrote:
DAY 3 VOTE TALLY

Player (13/17) - # - Voted by

DMDupree - 3 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(1), Samool(5), ortho_(9), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(15)
Samool - 3 - Irina_Phoenix(10), nolemonplease(12), Rhanddom(17)
dejojam1 - 1 - DMDupree(7)
Irina_Phoenix - 1 - Aumerle(8)
kuchick - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(2), PaperF(4), nolemonplease(6), Jedit(11)
Aumerle - 1 - PaperF(13)
whirlingdervish - 1 - nolemonplease(3), dejojam1(14)
Jedit - 1 - kuchick(16)

Not voting: whirlingdervish

---------------------

DAY 3 INVERTED TALLY

Voter - # - Voted on

Aumerle - 1 - Irina_Phoenix(8)
dejojam1 - 1 - whirlingdervish(14)
DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 3 - DMDupree(1), kuchick(2), DMDupree(15)
DMDupree - 1 - dejojam1(7)
Irina_Phoenix - 1 - Samool(10)
Jedit - 1 - kuchick(11)
kuchick - 1 - Jedit(16)
nolemonplease - 3 - whirlingdervish(3), kuchick(6), Samool(12)
ortho_ - 1 - DMDupree(9)
PaperF - 2 - kuchick(4), Aumerle(13)
Rhanddom - 1 - Samool(17)
Samool - 1 - DMDupree(5)

Not voting: whirlingdervish

Rhanddom voted for Samool at 2:08 PM CDT on 8/15/2019

Seven votes later, we lynched Samool, with no further egging on from me. I posted two minutes before lynch with some thoughts on aux vs. max. The only other candidate in play was Rorab/Dupree, whom you and I both now think to be good. And that's where your vote was at dusk. So what's your hypothesis? Is this supposed to be a Rorab save by an informed co-evil? That would be a pretty weaksauce save attempt, if so; and requires Rorab to be, you know, evil. Did I distract from some other push on some better candidate? Not that I can see. Are you blaming me for liking the company of Irina and nolemon over Samool, ortho, and Dubs? Or for not voting into the weeds? Not that a vote in another direction couldn't have had a different impact; but are you claiming to know something I don't about whom I should have brought to the fore there and why?
 
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You know, just because the wolves seem to want us to solve the seers for them, doesn't mean we have to oblige. I'm feeling a [vote Irina] here. Who's in?
 
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Scott
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Rhand, I'm a tone reader. That whole run up on Samool felt wrong to me and your part of it was significant.

I fully admit that Rob/DMD might be good though, in which case ???

I like that you brought it up again.
 
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Rhanddom wrote:
You know, just because the wolves seem to want us to solve the seers for them, doesn't mean we have to oblige. I'm feeling a [vote Irina] here. Who's in?

I'm very much into the idea of not voting either of the seers.

In that case for me I think it's you, Irina or Tanner.

So I'll think about it.
 
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VOTE TALLY

Player (8/17) - # - Voted by

DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 4 - ortho_(1), Rhanddom(2), kuchick(3), whirlingdervish(4), DMDupree(6)
DMDupree - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(10)
Irina_Phoenix - 1 - Rhanddom(11)
kuchick - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(5), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(9)
ortho_ - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(8)
Aumerle - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(7)

Not Voting: Aumerle, Irina_Phoenix


Nightfall votes are denoted by an '*' after the player's name.

Your Moderator has chosen to use the Longest Held Last Vote method for a tiebreaker - This is just for Cassandra system, and there may be a different tiebreaker specified by your Moderator in the ruleset.

Lynch time is at 2:30 PM BGG
Night Action deadline is at 3:30 PM BGG

---------------------

INVERTED TALLY

Voter - # - Voted on

DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 5 - kuchick(5), Aumerle(7), ortho_(8), kuchick(9), DMDupree(10)
DMDupree - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(6)
kuchick - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(3)
ortho_ - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(1)
Rhanddom - 2 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(2), Irina_Phoenix(11)
whirlingdervish - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(4)

Not Voting: Aumerle, Irina_Phoenix
 
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Aumerle wrote:
Rhanddom wrote:
You know, just because the wolves seem to want us to solve the seers for them, doesn't mean we have to oblige. I'm feeling a [vote Irina] here. Who's in?

I'm very much into the idea of not voting either of the seers.

In that case for me I think it's you, Irina or Tanner.

So I'll think about it.
I don't have any real problem with pressuring Tanner instead this far in advance of dusk, but I'm a lot more confident that I'm not exposing Team Good to an LHLV loss right now with a vote on Irina. You and Irina have not voted since dawn, and that's fine, but on the whole I approve of post-dawn Dubs votes and I'm not voting for a Dubs voter on a Saturday afternoon. Nor for you; I think your push on me (and your general effort to solve the game) is probably coming from a good place. My broader opinion on what your use of your role says about your alignment is more complicated, but I'm still trying to English that, let alone congeal it into a red/green bit.
 
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Rhanddom wrote:
I think this is where I am right now: http://gamedecay.com/voteviewer.html?g=2170863&d=2&v=41&a=lW...
I colored Dubs and Irina Evil and myself and kuchick and Jedit and Rorab/Dupree Good. Whirly and ortho and Aumerle are blue because they're the people I'm really still trying to figure out and it draws the eye nicely. Keeping this handy as I read the part of Day 2 I missed.

VoteViewer wrote:
DAY 2 VOTE TALLY

Player (16/17) - # - Voted by

Felice Si - 8 - Aumerle(8), dejojam1(9), ortho_(15), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(20), PaperF(22), Raven1207(24), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(28), Irina_Phoenix(31), whirlingdervish(32), spj91(33), ortho_(37), spj91(38)
ortho_ - 4 - Samool(14), spj91(18), nolemonplease(19), DMDupree(21), Irina_Phoenix(25), Irina_Phoenix(29), Jedit(34), spj91(35), Samool(36)
nolemonplease - 1 - DMDupree(11), kuchick(16), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(26)
Jedit - 1 - ortho_(27), Aumerle(30)
Raven1207 - 0 - spj91(1), Samool(2), Aumerle(23)
Samool - 0 - DMDupree(17)
Irina_Phoenix - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(6), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(13)
Aumerle - 0 - kuchick(12)
kuchick - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(7), ortho_(10)
spj91 - 0 - Raven1207(3), Raven1207(4), Raven1207(5)

Not voting: Felice Si, Rhanddom

---------------------

DAY 2 INVERTED TALLY

Voter - # - Voted on

Aumerle - 3 - Felice Si(8), Raven1207(23), Jedit(30)
dejojam1 - 1 - Felice Si(9)
DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 6 - Irina_Phoenix(6), kuchick(7), Irina_Phoenix(13), Felice Si(20), nolemonplease(26), Felice Si(28)
DMDupree - 3 - nolemonplease(11), Samool(17), ortho_(21)
Irina_Phoenix - 3 - ortho_(25), ortho_(29), Felice Si(31)
Jedit - 1 - ortho_(34)
kuchick - 2 - Aumerle(12), nolemonplease(16)
nolemonplease - 1 - ortho_(19)
ortho_ - 4 - kuchick(10), Felice Si(15), Jedit(27), Felice Si(37)
PaperF - 1 - Felice Si(22)
Raven1207 - 4 - spj91(3), spj91(4), spj91(5), Felice Si(24)
Samool - 3 - Raven1207(2), ortho_(14), ortho_(36)
spj91 - 5 - Raven1207(1), ortho_(18), Felice Si(33), ortho_(35), Felice Si(38)
whirlingdervish - 1 - Felice Si(32)

Not voting: Felice Si, Rhanddom

spj91 voted for Felice Si at 2:31 PM CDT on 8/14/2019

I don't like you colouring in people who are not yet proven, but it's interesting to note that with the brief exception of Irina and possibly Dupreerab, everyone who voted for Ortho on D2 was good and everyone he voted for was good.

I do not like Rhand unvoting Dubs. It opens the door for LHLV if other people switch.
 
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Even Samool didn't think it was my questioning his jump to the Magrat Garlick conclusion that did him in.
Samool wrote:
I would look into rorab whirling and ortho
 
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Rhanddom wrote:
Aumerle wrote:
Rhanddom wrote:
You know, just because the wolves seem to want us to solve the seers for them, doesn't mean we have to oblige. I'm feeling a [vote Irina] here. Who's in?

I'm very much into the idea of not voting either of the seers.

In that case for me I think it's you, Irina or Tanner.

So I'll think about it.
I don't have any real problem with pressuring Tanner instead this far in advance of dusk, but I'm a lot more confident that I'm not exposing Team Good to an LHLV loss right now with a vote on Irina. You and Irina have not voted since dawn, and that's fine, but on the whole I approve of post-dawn Dubs votes and I'm not voting for a Dubs voter on a Saturday afternoon. Nor for you; I think your push on me (and your general effort to solve the game) is probably coming from a good place. My broader opinion on what your use of your role says about your alignment is more complicated, but I'm still trying to English that, let alone congeal it into a red/green bit.

Like this post and I don't mind supporting you there.

[vote irina]

Regarding my role, this kind of role is a pretty bad fit for me (that's not a complaint about the game, it's a statement about how I am as a player), it's not the kind of role I really know how to get anything useful out of. Would it have been better to hold off claiming to possibly draw evil actions and waste them? I don't know compared to wasting possible good actions like real seer checks. I mean obviously I should have thought through some of my early game comments, that was dumb. But in terms of like strategic play with it, I have no idea. At the point I claimed, the thought process was basically "I already screwed up something, I should just claim so I don't waste good powers" and because I felt bad about what I'd said regarding Samool, which didn't have anything to do with alignment.
 
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Jedit, it's a calculated risk. I don't think we're in an LHLV situation to begin with. I think Irina is evil. I'm thinking about whether or not an evil flip from her is more informative than an evil Dubs flip. I want to see what stirring the pot brings to the surface. Wasting a weekend — weekends are hell on evil; goods have a way of finding one another in relaxed dialogue — by letting everybody sit tight on a consensus candidate (and a probable aux at that) just isn't my style.
 
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VOTE TALLY

Player (8/17) - # - Voted by

DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 4 - ortho_(1), Rhanddom(2), kuchick(3), whirlingdervish(4), DMDupree(6)
Irina_Phoenix - 2 - Rhanddom(11), Aumerle(12)
DMDupree - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(10)
kuchick - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(5), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(9)
ortho_ - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(8)
Aumerle - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(7)

Not Voting: Irina_Phoenix


Nightfall votes are denoted by an '*' after the player's name.

Your Moderator has chosen to use the Longest Held Last Vote method for a tiebreaker - This is just for Cassandra system, and there may be a different tiebreaker specified by your Moderator in the ruleset.

Lynch time is at 2:30 PM BGG
Night Action deadline is at 3:30 PM BGG

---------------------

INVERTED TALLY

Voter - # - Voted on

Aumerle - 1 - Irina_Phoenix(12)
DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 5 - kuchick(5), Aumerle(7), ortho_(8), kuchick(9), DMDupree(10)
DMDupree - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(6)
kuchick - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(3)
ortho_ - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(1)
Rhanddom - 2 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(2), Irina_Phoenix(11)
whirlingdervish - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(4)

Not Voting: Irina_Phoenix
 
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Having said that, Jedit, I'm 90% laugh confident that you're on Team Good, and I respect your opinion, so if you think I should switch my vote back to Dubs now, or before I go AFK, or whenever, I'm happy to do that. If Irina is good, it sometimes works to put her on notice that she needs to come be present for a bit in order not to be mislynch fodder, and I think Aumerle and I have accomplished that by now.

[vote Dubs] while we talk that out.
 
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VOTE TALLY

Player (8/17) - # - Voted by

DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 5 - ortho_(1), Rhanddom(2), kuchick(3), whirlingdervish(4), DMDupree(6), Rhanddom(13)
DMDupree - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(10)
Irina_Phoenix - 1 - Rhanddom(11), Aumerle(12)
kuchick - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(5), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(9)
ortho_ - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(8)
Aumerle - 0 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(7)

Not Voting: Irina_Phoenix


Nightfall votes are denoted by an '*' after the player's name.

Your Moderator has chosen to use the Longest Held Last Vote method for a tiebreaker - This is just for Cassandra system, and there may be a different tiebreaker specified by your Moderator in the ruleset.

Lynch time is at 2:30 PM BGG
Night Action deadline is at 3:30 PM BGG

---------------------

INVERTED TALLY

Voter - # - Voted on

Aumerle - 1 - Irina_Phoenix(12)
DIGGITYDAWGDUBS - 5 - kuchick(5), Aumerle(7), ortho_(8), kuchick(9), DMDupree(10)
DMDupree - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(6)
kuchick - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(3)
ortho_ - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(1)
Rhanddom - 3 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(2), Irina_Phoenix(11), DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(13)
whirlingdervish - 1 - DIGGITYDAWGDUBS(4)

Not Voting: Irina_Phoenix
 
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Scott
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The more I look at that vote at dawn I think most of the people on Dubs are probably good.

This is from a good!Aumerle perspective so ignore this post if you don't care about that but evil team knows they have time to coordinate an LHLV there, I've openly said I'm not going to be available at dawn, so if it's 4-4 there's no possibility of 4 good votes to beat them anytime soon because I'm not present.

So if evil had the votes I think they would have worked it out, with the only exception of someone not nightfalling or following through because of an uncoordinated aux.

So based on that I think it's highly unlikely that there are 4 evils right now.

If that's the case then evil wouldn't be all that ready/worried about voting at dawn because they know the actual situation, it's the good players who think the game might be going into LHLV. So that *could* have been a bunch of good players voting Dubs as who they thought the most likely evil was, maybe with an evil voting with them thinking, okay everyone's voting dubs I should do it too to seem part of the group.

Dubs votes kuchick to start up the alternate train because maybe dubs thinks there could be an aux and isn't 100% sure? I don't know that vote is strange to me coming like it's going to be part of an LHLV counter train on kuchick but nobody else votes there. If Dubs is a max then wouldn't wolves have coordinated who to vote in wolf chat? If Dubs is an aux wouldn't she vote herself? Maybe that's the thing, they wanted dubs to vote herself, she didn't because she wasn't quite ready to give away the game. The more I think about it, I think there's an aux that's not on the same page with the wolves right now. That feels right with what happened here. The thing for me is I think I'd pick Dubs as that aux if I had to guess right now, so it doesn't help in terms of getting a vote on a wolf as soon as possible in the case that LHLV is still a thing.

But either way to me Irina not voting is kind of an evil indicator because like I said good doesn't know the situation, as a good I would have been watching and ready to vote someone if I could have been there. The fact that she felt comfortable sitting it out seems like she had knowledge that it wasn't going to be LHLV. It could also just be RL stuff - I'm not saying she's totes evil because of it. I'm sorry if that's meta or whatever but that's what I think about those votes.
 
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I was going to summon Dubs next but wound up watching half of Penguins of Madagascar in overlapping, randomly shuffled six-minute chunks instead.
 
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Maybe this'll work!

 
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Rhanddom wrote:
@Sheldon: I guess you get another shot at selling me your world. Hold me now?



Thompson Twins wrote:
I have a picture
Pinned to my wall
An image of you and of me and we're laughing and loving it all
Look at our life now, tattered and torn
We fuss and we fight and delight in the tears that we cry until dawn

Hold me now, warm my heart
Stay with me, let loving start (let loving start)

You say I'm a dreamer, we're two of a kind
Both of us searching for some perfect world we know we'll never find
So perhaps I should leave here, yeah yeah go far away
But you know that there's nowhere that I'd rather be than with you here today

Hold me now, warm my heart
Stay with me, let loving start (let loving start)

You ask if I love you, well what can I say?
You know that I do and if this is just one of those games that we play
So I'll sing you a new song, please don't cry anymore
And then I'll ask your forgiveness, though I don't know just what I'm
Asking it for

Hold me now, warm my heart
Stay with me, let loving start (let loving start)

@ Rhand: I am Betty, kuchick is Timmy.

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Aumerle wrote:
DIGGITYDAWGDUBS wrote:
Hold the phone. Paper is dead.

[vote Aumerle]
[vote ortho]

Okay I had to get that out of my system.

[vote kuchick]

How does the Paper death implicate me or ortho?

ortho because they have played a million games together and ortho thought Paper was good and if ortho is evil he may have feared Paper might figure out and start calling for his head.
You because you know why. (See 15er.)
The fact that neither of you picked up on this being a joke is interesting.
 
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Naughty Penguin of the Month is a thing. Who knew?
 
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Aumerle wrote:
I was going to try some thoughts on the votes at beginning of day.

But I'm going to go about this a different way

@Dubs - This is exactly the sort of thing you like to analyze.

Why did everyone except me, Irina and DMD vote you immediately like it was a LHLV and what does that say about alignments? (DMD followed after 15 mins I think)

In other words, what do you think was happening with those votes?

Anyone else feel free to pitch in on this.

That wasn't a normal next day start, that was definitely people thinking this could be a LHLV race and what's interesting to me is the number of people that all voted the same person. That's not what I usually see in those.

People are voting me for 1 of the following reasons:

1. They are evil.
2. They are good, but they mistakenly think I am evil.

As for why 4 people have not night fall voted me:

1. There are 3 or fewer evils remaining.
2. There are 4 evils remaining, but they do not know that.
 
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I bet she likes long walks at sunset on very, very cold beaches.
 
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Aumerle wrote:
Also I'm about 70% likely to just decide that ortho is good and go with that until the end of the game.

He supported me on the Jedit lynch in a way that made sense to me(which could be because he knew Jedit was good and didn't mind it for that reason) but seemed genuine throughout to me and as far as I can tell has been honest about his role and actions in the game.

So you are allowed to just decide ortho is good but when I do the same thing for you it makes me suspicious? I am not going to waste time considering you may be evil when it is obvious you are good. I have said multiple times I will bet the game on you being good. See that as you will.
 
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DMDupree wrote:
Aumerle wrote:

So I don't really get that NK over Dubs/kuchick, if good, they are both bringing a lot more to the game, and even with the priest out, if one flips good.. that tells us a LOT - like if kuchick were to die and flip good I wouldn't need to see it say Ponder Stibbons to believe her views, even more now that another view has happened, because evil wouldn't know that the new views wouldn't give us anything at the point where they chose the NK.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I think based on that and the fact that (unless there's a mechanic I'm forgetting) they both called evil hits on each other, we can reach the conclusion that they cannot both be good.

So, I think there are 3 possibilities then:

1. evil!Kuchick/good DUBS - In this situation, I think it is apparent that Kuchick countered DUBS to throw the village off. Also, it is possible that she is DEATH and knew dejo was an aux, so she called a hit on her to make herself look more credible if the dejo lynch went through. Also, because she claimed Ponder Stibbons, if the DUBS lynch had went through and DUBS flipped good, she could always fall back on the 90% thing. There is also the fact that she waited to share the hit on DUBS, and as I pointed out below, she targeted jedit after ortho had said he would be targeting jedit or DUBS...that just seems like an odd decision.

2. evil!DUBS/good!Kuchick - In this case, I believe DUBS got a seer view of Kuchick, and decided to claim in the hopes that no one would believe kuchick's counter. I'll admit, I am having trouble seeing the merit in this though.

3. They are both evil. They set this up for the sake of creating a dichotomy that causes division in the village. There may be some evidence for this in the fact that kuchick tested jedit and DUBS tested Paper, both of whom are dead now. I struggle to understand why kuchick would choose to test jedit, after ortho said he would be targeting either DUBS or jedit(Note: It is possible kuchick already addressed this and I missed it). Ftr, I feel like they are most likely both wolves in this instance. And by both claiming, they have set it up so that the other immediately gets credibility/cleared when the other dies. (We could also consider the fact that neither one has been nked here.)

This is the first post I have seen from DMD since she replaced in that makes me think she may be good. This is a very good DMD post.
 
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Whoa. I never really caught the hommage here before.



 
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Aumerle wrote:
DMDupree wrote:
Aumerle wrote:
DMDupree wrote:
Aumerle wrote:

So I don't really get that NK over Dubs/kuchick, if good, they are both bringing a lot more to the game, and even with the priest out, if one flips good.. that tells us a LOT - like if kuchick were to die and flip good I wouldn't need to see it say Ponder Stibbons to believe her views, even more now that another view has happened, because evil wouldn't know that the new views wouldn't give us anything at the point where they chose the NK.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I think based on that and the fact that (unless there's a mechanic I'm forgetting) they both called evil hits on each other, we can reach the conclusion that they cannot both be good.

So, I think there are 3 possibilities then:

1. evil!Kuchick/good DUBS - In this situation, I think it is apparent that Kuchick countered DUBS to throw the village off. Also, it is possible that she is DEATH and knew dejo was an aux, so she called a hit on her to make herself look more credible if the dejo lynch went through. Also, because she claimed Ponder Stibbons, if the DUBS lynch had went through and DUBS flipped good, she could always fall back on the 90% thing. There is also the fact that she waited to share the hit on DUBS, and as I pointed out below, she targeted jedit after ortho had said he would be targeting jedit or DUBS...that just seems like an odd decision.

2. evil!DUBS/good!Kuchick - In this case, I believe DUBS got a seer view of Kuchick, and decided to claim in the hopes that no one would believe kuchick's counter. I'll admit, I am having trouble seeing the merit in this though.

3. They are both evil. They set this up for the sake of creating a dichotomy that causes division in the village. There may be some evidence for this in the fact that kuchick tested jedit and DUBS tested Paper, both of whom are dead now. I struggle to understand why kuchick would choose to test jedit, after ortho said he would be targeting either DUBS or jedit(Note: It is possible kuchick already addressed this and I missed it). Ftr, I feel like they are most likely both wolves in this instance. And by both claiming, they have set it up so that the other immediately gets credibility/cleared when the other dies. (We could also consider the fact that neither one has been nked here.)

DEATH doesn't get alignment, just character name. I've been looking at that, it's possible that it came into play but I think it's more likely if evil that they are the exact role they claimed, just evil version and got the opposite hit they called (or at least Dubs since she claimed fairly early - I'm less sure on this with kuchick). Like Dubs got a evil on Jedit/ortho so called seer with a clear on them so the evil one would know that she was an aux from that fake view. Regarding kuchick - she's more complicated since dejo flipped aux. She could be real with a real view. Or she could be an evil that didn't realize dejo was an aux, regardless of her character - maybe she had a view that didn't tell alignment like DEATH or maybe she just thought dejo was good.

It looks like from your comment at #2 that you might not realize - these two didn't exactly counter each other in the normal sense. Dubs claimed a full day? earlier than kuchick. I think Dubs claimed at the beginning of D3 and kuchick claimed at the beginning of D4. So Dubs claimed the previous day, then the next day was the day she called the hit on kuchick after not dying during the night and kuchick claimed that day. I don't know if that changes things for you but it sounds like that you might not have realized that's what happened. (I think I'm getting that right, there's been a lot of days)

The both evil idea is interesting. I mean, I've thought about it. And I agree about both of them having views today that don't add anything. I have trouble seeing it though. They have been very much against each other, there's been a lot of what would have to be manufactured? tension. About the only way I see it is if one is an aux and one is a max and one or the other didn't realize the other was also evil, at least at first. I don't really think this is the case though, it's just too much. Unless kuchick actually thinks Dubs is real, I just don't see a day later fake claiming another semi-seer role when there's already a evil fake seer out there.

I mean to me it's on the same level of the argument that someone made when Lemon vigi shot someone - DEATH OF RATS (Lemon's role) *could* be good or evil so Lemon *could* have been evil vigi who actually shot a max evil to clear her for the rest of the game. It wasn't the case. It's like the wolves no killing. People talk about it, it's something that could be done, but it really like 99% never happens.

Yeah, I was definitely confused on point 2. Thanks! I agree that 3 might be out there, but after seeing DUBS and her wolf partner convincingly pull off tension and bussing in Mad Science II, I feel like I can't completely cross it off the list.

Oh also, if you're unsure about the timing - The biggest thing for me for evil!kuchick is that she claimed Ponder with the hit on Dubs the day AFTER she got that hit. In other words, the day she got the Ponder hit on Dubs she did call Dubs evil a lot in thread, but didn't actually say she was Ponder with a hit on Dubs until the next day, even though she had the hit (if her views are to be believed) the day before.

People keep telling me that's just how kuchick plays but I've never seen that before. Someone not announcing their official hit on the day they got it.

Please consider: Of the 2 Seer claimants, kuchick was obviously the far more believed claimant yesterday. So anyone who is suspicious of me for still being alive yesterday, but not suspicious of kuchick being alive today, is themself suspicious.
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