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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Escape rss

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Michael Denman
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I've played this game hundreds of times and yet at times I find myself stopping and wondering, "Wait... am I doing that right?"

I'm trying to make sure I am handling escaping villains correctly.

1) A villain slides off the left edge of the city. I KO a card from the HQ and I activate the villain's escape ability if it has one. It does NOT matter if that villain is ascending to become a Mastermind or Fortifying some spot. The villain escaped and thus the effects trigger. Is that right?

2) Many schemes are checking for escaping villains. Examples :

Replace Earth's Leaders with Killbots : If 5 Killbots escape.

Predict Future Crime :
When there are 2 Villains per player in the Escape Pile.

When the villain is ascending, or fortifying, or who knows what else might divert them, do they count for these lose conditions? With Predict, it looks like you sneak past the lose condition that way and you can just leave them where they go and be okay. With Replace, I'm not so sure. They DID escape but how in the world am I expected to keep track of that? That makes me wonder if even with Replace they have to go to the Escape Pile.
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Scott Wheelock
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Trump wrote:
On a related note, let's say I am am playing a two-player game with Predict. There are three villains in the Escape Pile. I have defeated the regular Mastermind but I have an ascended Mastermind too. When I defeat that Mastermind, do I win instantly or does it go to my Escape Pile and I lose first? I'd think I won but... just checking.


Why would the ascended Mastermind go to your Escape Pile? I would think it would go straight to your Victory Pile.
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Jason Walker
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https://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Legendary_Marvel_FAQ...

Quote:
Villains That Escape to Become Other Things
Q: If a villain like Mystique (who becomes a Twist) or Reignfire (who becomes a Master Strike) escapes, does it go to the "Escaped Villains" pile or is it placed solely as that card?

A: It never goes to the Escaped Villains pile. As soon as it escapes, after resolving any other escape effects (KOing a Hero from HQ, discarding a card if it had a Bystander), it becomes the other card in every way, and it goes wherever the Scheme instructs you to place those cards. (The default location is the KO Pile in the absence of such instructions.) Source 1: Brenner / Source 2: Devin
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Fernando Santos
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If an ascended Mastermind is beaten by you it goes to your Vitory Pile, not an escape pile...

Same as a Villain that is Fortifying a space for example.

Another example using another scheme and this from the Basic Game:

Negative Zone Prison Breakout
Setup: 8 Twists. Add an extra Henchman group to the Villain Deck.
Twist: Play the top 2 cards of the Villain Deck.
Evil Wins: If 12 Villains escape.

If i have a copycat bystander (as a villain) escaping the city i would add that to the number of villains escaping.

If i had a villain escaping and then becoming a ascended Mastermind, that villain for me DID escape and it would count for the number of villains that did escape.

You can use tokens to keep track of any that did escape and then went and so other villain stuff like fortifying, become masterminds, and pain in our behind and so on.
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Fernando Santos
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TravelSized wrote:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Legendary_Marvel_FAQ...

Quote:
Villains That Escape to Become Other Things
Q: If a villain like Mystique (who becomes a Twist) or Reignfire (who becomes a Master Strike) escapes, does it go to the "Escaped Villains" pile or is it placed solely as that card?

A: It never goes to the Escaped Villains pile. As soon as it escapes, after resolving any other escape effects (KOing a Hero from HQ, discarding a card if it had a Bystander), it becomes the other card in every way, and it goes wherever the Scheme instructs you to place those cards. (The default location is the KO Pile in the absence of such instructions.) Source 1: Brenner / Source 2: Devin


And how this deals with Schemes that counts number of Villains escaping, we count only those on the Escape Pile?
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Kevin Salch
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I think you were correct in counting them as escaped no matter what they become after the escape. I think you would need tokens (very rare case in my experience at least where the game does not provide the necessary tracking information.) Devin said to resolve any "escape" effects and then the card becomes whatever. So if the scheme says X number of villains escape then they do. If the scheme was to say X number of villains in the escape pile, then I would not count them as they never go to the escape pile. (I don't think this is a thing)
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Michael Denman
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That was just a total brain fart on what happens to the ascended Mastermind if I defeat him later. blush

OK, so you guys count the villains as escaped and use tokens or something? Ick. That's doable, but it adds a level of fiddliness I'd rather not have to death with. Oh well, thanks!
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Jason Walker
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I would not count them as escaped in those situations. There have been other rulings that talk about how cards don't have a memory of being a different type when they move from zone to zone. For example:

Quote:
Q: If Mystique becomes a Scheme Twist during the Scheme Steal the Weaponized Plutonium and is subsequently shuffled back into the Villain deck, does she become a Scheme Twist when revealed from the Villain Deck going forward, or does she revert back to a Villain?

A: Cards do not have memory that would allow Mystique to remain as a Scheme Twist while in the Villain deck, so she reverts back to a Villain card until such time as she escapes again. Source: Devin


So the idea that you would mark a card with a token to remind you that it escaped seems like you're trying to force that memory.
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Michael Green
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For schemes that are based on the number of escaped villains (rather than the numbe rin the escaped villains pile) I would count ascended masterminds and fortify Villains as escaped until they're defeeated (they're still on the board so you can count them and add them to those in the escaped pile).

Once you defeat them though, they don't count as escaped anymore, because they're in your victory pile and cards have no memory.
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Darth Ed
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dontfeedthegreen wrote:
For schemes that are based on the number of escaped villains (rather than the numbe rin the escaped villains pile) I would count ascended masterminds and fortify Villains as escaped until they're defeeated (they're still on the board so you can count them and add them to those in the escaped pile).

Once you defeat them though, they don't count as escaped anymore, because they're in your victory pile and cards have no memory.

I concur with that interpretation.
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Fernando Santos
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DarthEd wrote:
dontfeedthegreen wrote:
For schemes that are based on the number of escaped villains (rather than the numbe rin the escaped villains pile) I would count ascended masterminds and fortify Villains as escaped until they're defeeated (they're still on the board so you can count them and add them to those in the escaped pile).

Once you defeat them though, they don't count as escaped anymore, because they're in your victory pile and cards have no memory.

I concur with that interpretation.


I also concur
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Michael Denman
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OK, got it. No messy tokens but I do need to glance around and keep count of fortified villains and ascended masterminds, ASSUMING that they got there via escaping the city. If I can defeat them, I don't have to count them even though they did previously escape.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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This kind of thing always makes me wonder if a card template was changed and they just couldn’t change the previous cards retroactively. Like maybe the ones that say something like Evil wins if 12 Villains escape was really supposed to be changed to the newer template of Evil wins if there are 12 Villains in the Escape pile.

I mean, it’s possible to have two different conditions, of course, but it always makes me wonder...
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Michael Denman
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randomlife wrote:
This kind of thing always makes me wonder if a card template was changed and they just couldn’t change the previous cards retroactively. Like maybe the ones that say something like Evil wins if 12 Villains escape was really supposed to be changed to the newer template of Evil wins if there are 12 Villains in the Escape pile.

I mean, it’s possible to have two different conditions, of course, but it always makes me wonder...


I agree with you... which is part of why I asked about it.
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Shelley Hebert
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randomlife wrote:
This kind of thing always makes me wonder if a card template was changed and they just couldn’t change the previous cards retroactively.


Like the Thor “if you made 8 munny this turn get 3///“?

That one is quite irritating. I accept that 8 munny for 3 attack is not a dreadful price but having to have made that first is a huge hill to climb and really nerfs someone who should be quite powerful.

SH
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Desmond Grey
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Facsantos wrote:
DarthEd wrote:
dontfeedthegreen wrote:
For schemes that are based on the number of escaped villains (rather than the numbe rin the escaped villains pile) I would count ascended masterminds and fortify Villains as escaped until they're defeeated (they're still on the board so you can count them and add them to those in the escaped pile).

Once you defeat them though, they don't count as escaped anymore, because they're in your victory pile and cards have no memory.

I concur with that interpretation.


I also concur

I disagree with this interpretation.

I count an Escaped Villain as any Villain that has escaped. Yes, cards don’t keep memory, but there’s a difference between how many have escaped (they were villains when they escaped) and the number of villains in the escape pile. If it’s the latter loss condition, no, they aren’t in the escape pile.

Even if an ascended Mastermind is defeated and off the board, it was still a villain when it escaped (that is, if it escaped to ascend, of course).

I go with the literal translations when in doubt because they almost always wind up being the way the designers intended it.

I use the extra blank Legendary cards to track Villains that have escaped and then gone elsewhere besides the Escape Pile. Not difficult at all.
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Dale Stephenson
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I agree that if the scheme loss refers to the number of escapes, making a defeated ascender/fortifier un-escape is very counterintuitive. I appreciate that the cards themselves don't remember that they escaped, and I don't like the existence of a scheme loss condition that relies on something *other* than current board state. But the number of escapes that end up in the victory pile is likely to be small and easily remembered.
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Kevin Salch
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shellex wrote:
randomlife wrote:
This kind of thing always makes me wonder if a card template was changed and they just couldn’t change the previous cards retroactively.


Like the Thor “if you made 8 munny this turn get 3///“?

That one is quite irritating. I accept that 8 munny for 3 attack is not a dreadful price but having to have made that first is a huge hill to climb and really nerfs someone who should be quite powerful.

SH


I'm not sure I understand, You still have the 8 recruit to spend, you are not spending the 8 recruit in order to get the 3 attack they are in addition, Also the timing (first) is only important in that you can't use the attack to gain the recruit.

Or am I not understanding your comment?


Also I still agree that the X villains escape does not require the cards to have memory.
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Shelley Hebert
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costguy wrote:
shellex wrote:
Like the Thor “if you made 8 munny this turn get 3///“?

That one is quite irritating. I accept that 8 munny for 3 attack is not a dreadful price but having to have made that first is a huge hill to climb and really nerfs someone who should be quite powerful.


I'm not sure I understand, You still have the 8 recruit to spend, you are not spending the 8 recruit in order to get the 3 attack they are in addition, Also the timing (first) is only important in that you can't use the attack to gain the recruit.

Or am I not understanding your comment?


I didn't mean to imply that I had to pay for those 3///. Maybe "hurdle" would have been a better word than "price".

I much prefer the way that Lady Thor's and Throg's cards are worded: If you made at least X munny,.... . That way you don't have to already have the munny available at the time the card is played. I could use Throg to trigger Odinson and still get the 2///. If Throg behaved like Thor, I couldn't.

In my experience with Thor, it's going to take at least three cards to make 8 munny, meaning Thor is the fourth card out of six in your hand. It's likely that leaves only two other cards that could generate attack for you and requires you play in a specific order to get that, possibly reducing the possibilities for combos. And if you purchase a higher concentration of munny cards, that just dilutes the number of attack-generating cards you can have.

Considering how powerful Thor is in the comics, it seems very strange that he requires delicate play in the game. Lady Thor and Throg really fix that nicely.

SH
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Kevin Salch
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OK, I'll have to look at it again, but I don't see the problem, or the difference.

Usually the order of play does not matter, I don't recall the Thor card right now, but the way I would play, the order matters for triggering the super powers, (like having to have played a might hero first) But the way I recalled Thor was that it was as you describe Lady Thor and Throg,

What is the wording on both cards?

Not a big deal, as I don't have the game in front of me.


OK, I searched the forums and found this.From Devin Low, so yes I see what you mean by first, so you have to play two or three cards first.


Now I found Throg's card from Complete Card Text - all cards (through Dimensions) so the addition is "once this turn" also Lady Thor's so does the "once this turn" really change the way these cards work?



Throg (2 copies)
Avengers
Strength
2 Recruit
0+ Attack
Once this turn, if you made at least 6 Recruit, you get +2 Attack. Put this on the bottom of the Sidekick Stack.
Cost: 2

compared to
Surge of Power (5 copies)
Ranged
2 Recruit
0+ Attack
If you made 8 or more Recruit this turn, you get +3 Attack.
Cost: 4

And Lady Thor
Chosen by Asgard (5 copies)
Strength
2 Recruit
0+ Attack
Once per turn, if you made at least 6 Recruit this turn, you get +2 Attack.
Cost: 4

As noted below: this Thor discussion has been resolved, Not game breaking either way, but it is clear. The "once per turn" changes the card.
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Michael Denman
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This whole Thor chat is a bit of a digression and has already been dealt with anyway : https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/26357877#26357877

whistle

Looks like we may have to hope for Devin to chime in on the Escape ruling. I'm inclined to consider "escapes" and "in the escape pile" to be same thing as it is so much easier to implement, but I'm still interested in what the rule is SUPPOSED to be for this.
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Desmond Grey
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It makes the game easier, sure...

I don't see how it's "much easier" when it's not difficult at all to throw a couple of blank cards in the Escape Card to stand in for Ascended Masterminds, Villains that Fortify a space upon escape, or become something else (like a Scheme Twist or Master Strike). Other schemes from expansions rely on you adding your own token (Capture Baby Hope, for example), so it's not that much of a reach that the game expects us to adapt in situations like this. I really have never found this to be a difficult issue.

Now, if you're instead just holding out in hopes Devin will post in here...you're a couple years late XD
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Michael Denman
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Heck, I don't even like having to dig out the token cards from my X-Men set for those groups, so you can see that I am not a fan of the fiddly. It's not so horrible to throw in some other cards to the Escape Pile if that's what I need to do. If that's the way it's intended to be, then so be it. With Baby Hope I have a little meeple handy anyway, so it's not such a big deal to me, but in a pinch there's no reason you couldn't just move the Scheme card for that one.

Devin's not posting around here any more, eh? Oh well, he's posting on other sites, so I'll just cross-post my question in other places and put out a dragnet for him. It's not that I have to have an official person speaking up, but when we the players can't seem to reach a consensus, I do wonder what was originally intended. Maybe I'll put together a specific question to email to Upper Deck but I have no idea how responsive they are to such things.

EDIT : I sent en email to Upper Deck so we'll see what that turns up. I've been searching the message forums here and every time this topic has come up before, it ends in the same place this thread has... "I don't know but I am doing it like this". Maybe WE will finally come to a conclusive answer!
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Justin H

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I’m always treated schemes that say “when X Villains eacape” the same as “when there are X Villains in the escape pile”. Whether this is correct or not, I don’t know. It makes my life easier.

It also just feels right, man.
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Michael Denman
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FYI: Upper Deck has replied to me and if the loss condition is counting escaped villains, then ascended masterminds, etc DO count and you just have to come up with your own way to keep track of them.
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