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Subject: This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing rss

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Arthur Soma
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Obviously, the first car to pass the finish line wins. Is there any speed restriction if the finish line is near the end of a straight and you are now in 6th?
Also, if there are two cars side-by-side, and by rule, Car A moves first and crosses the finish line with a 18, and car B also crosses with 21. Does Car A win because it simply crossed first, but at slower speed than B?
Help is appreciated.???
 
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Fredrik Borg
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
artsoma (#38741),
As far as I remember it is simply the first person to cross the line that wins. It doesn't matter what happens after or if someone with a higher speed passes the goal line after him/her. Moving first is a reward for being ahead last turn.

Fredrik.
 
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Heinz Kiosk
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
Arthur,

There is no speed restriction for cars that have crossed the line, posthumous victories are permitted

Placing is determined purely by the order in which people cross the line, speed has nothing to do with it.

Tom
 
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
artsoma wrote:
Obviously, the first car to pass the finish line wins. Is there any speed restriction if the finish line is near the end of a straight and you are now in 6th?
Also, if there are two cars side-by-side, and by rule, Car A moves first and crosses the finish line with a 18, and car B also crosses with 21. Does Car A win because it simply crossed first, but at slower speed than B?
Help is appreciated.???


As has already been answered, the rules state it's the first car to cross. But! Our group has been playing this game for over 10 years and that rule sucks. It makes the end game boring and predictable in my view. We adapted the following rule after only two plays and have used it in all our leagues and races since:

The winner is the car that legally travels the furthest after crossing the finish line.

So, if three cars cross on the same turn, it's the one that travels the furthest within the rules. We have had many a fine race finish where the winner was not always so obvious. And often the car that moves first on the last turn of the game has to plan carefully where the car ends because it's possible those directly behind him may have saved enough tires to select a higher gear and actually blow past the corner directly after the finish line.
 
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Ubergeek
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
DWTripp (#38761),IMHO it's better to play the rule as published. The main reason being that this game is all about Pole Position. If it were played like many other race games where players always take turns in the same order, the alternate rule would make sense. But in FD, the player that moves into the lead goes first and so on. It's all about getting into the lead and staying there, not who has the most tires left on the final turn.
 
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
Walt Mulder wrote:
DWTripp (#38761 It's all about getting into the lead and staying there, not who has the most tires left on the final turn.


The published rules do work fine, but our local groups felt they didn't simulate what happpens in most races. Essentially we adopted the rule because a 3 lap race is a simulation of 2 hours of F1 racing and whether F1, Indy Cars, Nascar or GP bikes, lengthy races are all about tires and preserving the machine. To create the effect of the car and it's components eroding and to better simulate what actually happens out there when men and machine are closely matched, we felt the new rule tended to reward the driver who went fast enough to stay with the leader but managed his resources smarter. Of course that is not a guarantee of a come-from-behind victory, but it does make the game better if you have multiple cars contending for the lead and all in the same corner on the same turn.

I've probably played Formula De 100+ times this way and I'd never go back to the published rule.
 
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kevin long
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
artsoma (#38741),
as many times as this race comes down to more than one crossing the finish line at the same round, it is worth using a sensible rule and we use the furthest down the track wins
 
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I like board games more than most people.
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
Interesting. This same topic was raised on the Yahoo Formula De discussion board a while back. I’ll give my same answer.

First, if you are satisfied with the rules as written, by all means use them. There is no sense tinkering with something if you do not believe it to be broken. If you believe that the player who manages to get to move first on the last turn should be rewarded for his/her skill in achieving that position, then this post is not for you.

Second, if you believe that the rule of “whoever goes farthest past the finish line” is too much trouble, you definitely won’t like my answer as it is even more complicated. If you fall into the first two categories, stop reading now and enjoy Formula De either with the rules as written or use the “farthest past” rule.

Okay, now that that is out of the way….

My thoughts on this matter actually were spurred by the rules for finishing in Circus Maximus. They too go with the farthest past rule. However, unlike Formula De, the order of movement is random. This means you could be one space from the finish line and the chariot that is twenty spaces away could be chosen and streak past the finish line first. However, the chariot one space away would not immediately lose but still gets to make its move and the final position of all chariots after that turn would determine the winner. Because the movement order is random, the farthest past rule seems like a good idea. However, let me pose this hypothetical.

You are in the lead, in third gear, and are one move away from crossing the finish line. You roll a “5”, cross the finish line first, and end up four past the finish line. The only other car that crosses the line this turn starts out twenty-five away from the line and is in sixth gear. They roll a “30” and cross the finish line after you and end up five past the finish line. According to the “farthest past” rule, the person who rolled a “30” wins.

WARNING: Math follows!!!

The person who moved five actually crossed the finish line when 1/5 or 20 percent of his turn was over. The person who moved thirty crossed the finish line when 25/30 or 83 percent of his turn was over. Since in reality the cars are constantly in motion (rather than the “first person moves his entire turn, then second person moves his entire turn” as depicted by the rules as they stand), the car moving thirty overtakes the car moving five, but as shown mathematically, does so after the first car passed the finish line. In real racing, the instant the first car crosses determines the winner, not which car is farther past the finish line after a set amount of time.

Once again, this is only for those who are not satisfied with the rule as written and are not bothered by additional complexity. This option

 
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Ubergeek
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
kjamma4 (#47098),
The person who moved five actually crossed the finish line when 1/5 or 20 percent of his turn was over. The person who moved thirty crossed the finish line when 25/30 or 83 percent of his turn was over. Since in reality the cars are constantly in motion (rather than the “first person moves his entire turn, then second person moves his entire turn” as depicted by the rules as they stand), the car moving thirty overtakes the car moving five, but as shown mathematically, does so after the first car passed the finish line. In real racing, the instant the first car crosses determines the winner, not which car is farther past the finish line after a set amount of time.

This is the best explanation and justification for using the rules as written where the first person across wins. I've always been a proponent for this since you've worked to keep your pole position through the game and that's why you're in the lead. Or perhaps you worked to get into pole position on the last turn. Regardless of how you got there, your math puts a better spin on my argument. Supercool
 
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
Walt Mulder (#47195),

Well Walt, as Kurt says, use what you like. I agree. But since we're discussing this, here's my comment on his spin.

In a game like Formula de you are still simulating a full 2 hour race in three laps. Either finishing rule actually does the job of abstracting that into a believable finish or it doesn't. Kurt's solution is fine, so long as the last lap is just one of the 50 or 60 total laps. Since it represents 1/3 of the total laps, it doesn't fly for me.

I think the reason we adapted our finish line rule is to keep the tension up for a steady 8 or 9 players. There is always hope, even for a car a gear or two behind, so long as he feels he has the resources to blow that last corner in a higher gear and maybe, just maybe, catch and pass the leader. That ain't gonna happen if the leader already crossed the line. And there are enough excellent tracks for this game that provide such opportunities that I'd not want to play any other way.

BTW, were you aware there is going to be a new track set released in the next month or two?
 
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Jake Di Toro
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
Walt Mulder wrote:
This is the best explanation and justification for using the rules as written where the first person across wins.


It funny you should read it that way. Any maybe it's the fault of an extreme example. In the end that seems to support the rules as written but won't always do so. Take an example of two cars 22 and 24 spaces off the finish line. The car in the lead rolls a 24 and crosses the line at 91% of his turn. The person in second rolls a 30 however, which makes him cross the line at 80% of his turn.

Oops the same mechanic just justified farthest car after the line. And in this example the car does have to be further, rolling a 26 (being even) loses it for him with 92% of the turn.
 
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Heinz Kiosk
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
DWTripp,

The published rules do work fine, but our local groups felt they didn't simulate what happpens in most races. Essentially we adopted the rule because a 3 lap race is a simulation of 2 hours of F1 racing and whether F1, Indy Cars, Nascar or GP bikes, lengthy races are all about tires and preserving the machine. To create the effect of the car and it's components eroding and to better simulate what actually happens out there when men and machine are closely matched, we felt the new rule tended to reward the driver who went fast enough to stay with the leader but managed his resources smarter. Of course that is not a guarantee of a come-from-behind victory, but it does make the game better if you have multiple cars contending for the lead and all in the same corner on the same turn.

I've probably played Formula De 100+ times this way and I'd never go back to the published rule.


I've played 3 lap FD 100+ times with the standard rules, including 3 complete seasons of the F1 calendar. I've never seen the need to change the finishing rule and neither has anyone else in our groups. Curiously I have almost exactly the same rationale as you for liking the standard rules(?!) Because I believe that they reward the driver who has husbanded his machine the best and can manage the biggest possible overshoot on the last corner. Positioning and tactics approaching the last corner are absolutely key, as well as Lady Luck of course. Time and again our group has had unbearably tense and close finishes with the standard mechanism.

Tom
 
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Douglas Buel
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Re:This Could Be a Dumb Question - Finishing
artsoma (#38741),

This is always a "controversial" issue with this game.

One way to look at it is to analyze the various permutations of what might happen with either rule.

Assume for each permutation that Car A begins the round head of Car B, and that both will cross the finish line this turn.

1) Cars A and B move the same amount
In this permutation, it makes no difference which rule you use. Car A wins no matter what.

My opinion: This tells us nothing.

2) Car A moves farther than Car B
In this permuation, again it makes no difference which rule you use. Car A wins no matter what.

My opinion: This tells us nothing.

3) Car B moves farther than Car A when both are in the same gear because Car B rolls a higher number.
In this permutation, the actual rule still causes Car A to win. The house rule can cause Car B to win.

My opinion: Undesirable. The house rule has caused luck on the last turn to override the events of previous turns. This is a Bad Thing(tm).

4) Car B moves farther than Car A because Car B is in a higher gear.
In this permutation, the actual rule still causes Car A to win, while the house rule can cause Car B to win.

My opinion: Inconclusive. The house rule here may have caused skill on the second-to-last turn to override the events of previous turns, because position on the second-to-last turn determines what gear you may use on the last turn. This may be good, because skill has simply prevailed over skill. However, it may also be a Bad Thing(tm), because it could be said that skill on the second-to-last turn is what placed Car A ahead of Car B on that turn.

Analyzing it this way, the house rule isn't really demonstrated to be desirable.
 
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Stan Essick
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Kurt has the most realistic version of how to determine the victor. BTW Walt, as it has already been mentioned, it does not 'justify' the original rule.
 
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Jeff Hillier
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Regarding the winner being the first to cross the finish line or the one who goes furthest past the finishline, there really isn't much difference between the two. If you use the first to cross wins rule, the turn before someone crosses, the person who goes the furthest gets to go first on the final turn so they will likely win. So the exact same thing happens in both cases, just at slightly different times. If you manage to go furthest on the 2nd last turn instead of the last turn you will likely still win. Therefore IMO the first to cross rule works fine and should be used as it is written since this is the case in real racing.

 
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Anthony Simons
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Lorrman wrote:
Kurt has the most realistic version of how to determine the victor. BTW Walt, as it has already been mentioned, it does not 'justify' the original rule.


This would be an acceptable conclusion if his determination didn't involve analysis of the result of a die roll.

His method assumes the vehicle will travel at a constant speed for the entire turn; this overlooks the possibility that the "slower" vehicle actually passed the line first and the "faster" vehicle reached its current speed after crossing the line behind the true victor.

Unless somebody can come up with a method of tracking the different levels of acceleration and/or deceleration before and after crossing the line neither Kurt's nor anybody else's method for determining the victor can be considered more "realistic" than the original first-over-the-line method.

If you like the furthest-over-the-line rule you should be playing something else that tracks speed and acceleration more objectively (Formula 1 or Speed Circuit for example). I think it's best left as is for this game.
 
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Douglas Buel
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Lorrman wrote:
Kurt has the most realistic version of how to determine the victor. BTW Walt, as it has already been mentioned, it does not 'justify' the original rule.


I wouldn't worry about realism with this game. For example, if you were to examine the actual gears the cars are in while taking specific turns on the actual real-life tracks, they have little to do with the gears the cars are in when taking those same turns during Formula De.

If you're shooting for realism, you'll have to revision the gears in the game.
 
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