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Tournament Fishing: The Deckbuilding Game» Forums » General

Subject: Missed Opportunity rss

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Jimmy Pattaya
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It's too bad, Greg, that you decided not to go on Kickstarter for that "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". There is definitely a market out there for this kind of game. Tournament Fishing is the first realistic design (using the interesting deckbuilding mechanic)for this popular pastime.

Your brilliant design is light years ahead of Freshwater Fly or Coldwater Crown (in my opinion). Yet after only 2 days on Kickstarter, the new Freshwater Fly already has 457 backers. I am certain that serious fisherman and gamers would much prefer your design in a head-to-head test.

I understand why you didn't want all of the hassles of going on Kickstarter (which you stated in another thread). But it makes me feel bad when I see the kind of success that Freshwater Fly is having in the marketplace. Very few gamers even know that "Tournament Fishing: The Deckbuilding Game" exists.
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Greg Mahler
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Esto wrote:
It's too bad, Greg, that you decided not to go on Kickstarter for that "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". There is definitely a market out there for this kind of game. Tournament Fishing is the first realistic design (using the interesting deckbuilding mechanic)for this popular pastime.

Your brilliant design is light years ahead of Freshwater Fly or Coldwater Crown (in my opinion). Yet after only 2 days on Kickstarter, the new Freshwater Fly already has 457 backers. I am certain that serious fisherman and gamers would much prefer your design in a head-to-head test.

I understand why you didn't want all of the hassles of going on Kickstarter (which you stated in another thread). But it makes me feel bad when I see the kind of success that Freshwater Fly is having in the marketplace. Very few gamers even know that "Tournament Fishing: The Deckbuilding Game" exists.


Hi Jimmy!

Well, consider a few things.

1.) The publisher, Bellwether Games, already has a great track record of games including Coldwater Crown.

2.) Brian Suhre, designed Coldwater Crown and many other games.

3.) The artwork in Freshwater Fly is professional standard.

If you consider these three points and compare them to me and Tournament Fishing, you will see I am a first time publisher (not really since TGC is) and designer and the artwork in my game, while very good for what it is, is not on the level that it could be.

If you ask most people on the backend of the industry, for my game to have sold 100+ copies in the format that it did is absolutely astounding! Almost unheard-of really.

Take for example the game Desolate. Jason Glover has over 4000 followers of his publisher page. He has run several successful KS campaigns.

And yet, my game did just about as good as his in the crowd sale on TGC.

I have 48 followers on the Tournament Fishing Facebook page haha!

So my point is is that while I get what you are saying and really appreciate you concern, I also want to take a big victory dance here and point out just how crazy it is to see what happened with my game.

But, here is my plan....

Once everyone gets their copies (very soon!, maybe even in the next 2 weeks) and more reviews, ratings, etc start to come in on BGG and when more people start posting about it on social media, etc.

I plan to do a "second print run" and this time do it on Kickstarter with a lot more marketing and proof of the quality of the game on record.

I want to look into getting it done in China this time and see if I can get the price so low that no one would want to pass.

My dream would be to get Al Agnew to do the art for the game.

But even if none of that happens, at the very least I could have TGC do the manufacturing and the funding goal would be whatever 100 copies would cost. The huge issue you run into, though, is the shipping since it's extremely hard to estimate what it's going to be. And when you are only making a dollar or two per copy, mistakes here could basically make me have to pay out of pocket to get the games shipped.

So that is why it is better to do it in China, so that your margins are more around the $10 per copy profit range and you have more room to mess up.

Either way, I do plan to do something in the future and I hope this gives you the idea behind my goal and thoughts that go into the decisions!
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Barry Miller
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Esto wrote:
Your brilliant design is light years ahead of Freshwater Fly or Coldwater Crown (in my opinion).

That's a very subjective opinion of course, so you're entitled to it. But considering that comparing the two game systems is like comparing apples to oranges, it is a bit out of order.

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MS-06 Zaku II
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Oh...2nd printing may be coming soon in KS...

I wonder, is there any upgrade kit to our 1st printing supporters? any discount?

Suddenly I feel sour although I have not received my 1st printing copy yet.

cry
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Greg Mahler
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I also wanted to say that I really do like most of the things that Brian did in Freshwater Fly. He did a pretty good job at capturing the fly fishing sport in board game form. I played Coldwater Crown the other day, though and it was horrible. The theme is 100% pasted on and almost none of the mechanisms make any thematic sense.

This new one is different. Apart from the "rock cards" which are quite frankly absurd, the rest of the game looks extremely thematic. I am not going to back the game, but instead wait until retail. But I do want to get it, even though I do think that Tournament Fishing is the better game.

Think of Tournament Fishing like this awesome band that you heard about through the grapevine and grew to love that hardly no one else has ever heard of. You get to be one of the few people that even know about it and you get to tell people about it Chances are you will never get "Oh yeah, I have played that one before."
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Greg Mahler
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ah3Dog wrote:
Oh...2nd printing may be coming soon in KS...

I wonder, is there any upgrade kit to our 1st printing supporters? any discount?

Suddenly I feel sour although I have not received my 1st printing copy yet.

cry


Rest assured, there will be nothing new that needs to be upgraded. this will not be a new edition, which would be way different. Just a new print run.

Also the Al Angew thing was a pipe-dream. It will not happen I could never afford works of art like that. He is a master that has his stuff on the cover of Bass Fishing magazines all the time.
 
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Greg Mahler
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bgm1961 wrote:

Esto wrote:
Your brilliant design is light years ahead of Freshwater Fly or Coldwater Crown (in my opinion).

That's a very subjective opinion of course, so you're entitled to it. But considering that comparing the two game systems is like comparing apples to oranges, it is a bit out of order.



I don't think it's out of order (even a bit) to compare the systems, not from a mechanical standpoint (since they go about things pretty differently), but from an design quality, and thematically-accurate standpoint. And that seems to be what Jimmy was talking about.
 
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I backed Coldwater Crown during the KS, but played it once and sold it as I did not feel like fishing at all.

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Barry Miller
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tyk567 wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

Esto wrote:
Your brilliant design is light years ahead of Freshwater Fly or Coldwater Crown (in my opinion).

That's a very subjective opinion of course, so you're entitled to it. But considering that comparing the two game systems is like comparing apples to oranges, it is a bit out of order.



I don't think it's out of order (even a bit) to compare the systems, not from a mechanical standpoint (since they go about things pretty differently), but from an design quality, and thematically-accurate standpoint. And that seems to be what Jimmy was talking about.

Where I was coming from is that Coldwater Crown is a Euro game, through and through. Yours is not. Your game does indeed capture the thematic feeling of fishing much better than CW Crown. But respectfully, that in no way makes your design "light years" ahead of CW Crown, as the OP stated. However, your design is "light years" ahead of its competition. And as a Euro, CW Crown's design is "light years" ahead of its competition. (What I'm saying is that the two games don't compete against each other).

Thus it's a mistake to compare the two games, as your game is a card game. CW Crown is an action selection game. Your game is designed around fishing. CW Crown is not... as you say, CW Crown's theme is "pasted on". (But that's an evil which defines Euros as a whole). People don't buy CW Crown for the fishing experience. They buy it for the gameplay. And again, as Euros go, the mechanics introduced in CW crown are very refreshing for the category, which is why it's such a hit.

But so is your game, among card games. The theme is refreshing, and after watching your play-thru videos, the gameplay is also refreshing for card games, which is why I ordered it! (And I'm not even interested in fishing)!

But to say that either game is light years ahead of the other is a fallacy, as both games are light years ahead of other games in their own category. That's all I'm putting forth.

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Greg Mahler
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bgm1961 wrote:
tyk567 wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

Esto wrote:
Your brilliant design is light years ahead of Freshwater Fly or Coldwater Crown (in my opinion).

That's a very subjective opinion of course, so you're entitled to it. But considering that comparing the two game systems is like comparing apples to oranges, it is a bit out of order.



I don't think it's out of order (even a bit) to compare the systems, not from a mechanical standpoint (since they go about things pretty differently), but from an design quality, and thematically-accurate standpoint. And that seems to be what Jimmy was talking about.

Where I was coming from is that Coldwater Crown is a Euro game, through and through. Yours is not. Your game does indeed capture the thematic feeling of fishing much better than CW Crown. But respectfully, that in no way makes your design "light years" ahead of CW Crown, as the OP stated. However, your design is "light years" ahead of its competition. And as a Euro, CW Crown's design is "light years" ahead of its competition. (What I'm saying is that the two games don't compete against each other).

Thus it's a mistake to compare the two games, as your game is a card game. CW Crown is an action selection game. Your game is designed around fishing. CW Crown is not... as you say, CW Crown's theme is "pasted on". (But that's an evil which defines Euros as a whole). People don't buy CW Crown for the fishing experience. They buy it for the gameplay. And again, as Euros go, the mechanics introduced in CW crown are very refreshing for the category, which is why it's such a hit.

But so is your game, among card games. The theme is refreshing, and after watching your play-thru videos, the gameplay is also refreshing for card games, which is why I ordered it! (And I'm not even interested in fishing)!

But to say that either game is light years ahead of the other is a fallacy, as both games are light years ahead of other games in their own category. That's all I'm putting forth.



Depends on what Jimmy meant by "lightyears ahead". Seems to be in reference to the "design". He thinks that the design of TF is far ahead of CC and the new FF game in terms of design.

The way I interpret that is based on how my game design integrates with and brings out the theme, since none of the games (mine or Brian's) do anything new under the sun as far as mechanisms go.

After playing CC and looking closely at FF, I think my game is still ahead of those as far as capturing the theme in tabletop form. Still, I definitely want to buy FF and give it a try when it comes to retail. I am selling CC ASAP though because it was pretty horrible in my opinion.

Do you think TF is lightyears ahead of other deckbuilding games?
 
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Greg Mahler
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Just as a side note (teaser), you guys should know that I am working on a hunting game with many of the same mechanisms found in TF.
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Jimmy Pattaya
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Sorry, I didn't intend to offend anyone with my opinion. Let me explain further.

I was mainly referring to how the theme of fishing is integrated into the design of this game much better than any other on the market. That's all I really care about. What "Wingspan' has done for birding fans, "Tournament Fishing" has done for fish enthusiasts. I am incorporating the possibility of catching many different species and sub-species of North American fish into my own game to further excite me in my solo games. I took photos from the internet and taped them on to index cards (more than 120 species/sub-species) where I will keep stats on each fish caught, fish size etc. I have added lots of house rules as well. Everything is now ready for my game to arrive!

As many have commented, "Coldwater Crown" has the theme pasted on and I could not adapt the game for my own needs. I saw a couple of videos on "Freshwater Fly" and they did not interest me. These are all subjective opinions ---- as I commented in my original message. Perhaps others will enjoy them more than me.

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Barry Miller
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Esto wrote:
Sorry, I didn't intend to offend anyone with my opinion.

No offense taken! Both games are very good in their own right, and as neither can be compared to the other (except for how each enables thematic immersion befitting the artwork on their box covers), I was simply questioning the claim over how one design is superior to the other.

But I see now (and as Greg supposed), that you were talking about how each game fulfills the thematic immersion element. I think that's only one aspect of a game's overall design, which is where I was coming from.

And I agree that TF is far more thematic than CW Crown. But to be fair to CW Crown, it never billed itself as a fishing simulation. It wore its stripes as a Euro from day one, without any pretenses that the fishing theme actually drove the development of any of its mechanics. As you say, the theme was pasted on, and that's what you get with any Euro. Instead, CW Crown uses fishing as its setting. A Euro game's setting is different than a thematic game's immersion factor.

So I apologize for making a stink out of your comment that TF's design being "light years ahead"... I DO agree that when it comes to being thematic, TF takes that trophy!

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Claudio Coppini
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Quote:
The way I interpret that is based on how my game design integrates with and brings out the theme, since none of the games (mine or Brian's) do anything new under the sun as far as mechanisms go.


I think Coldwater Crown worker placement mechanic is quite original, haven't seen it implemented it that way in other games.

But anyhow, I'd like to play Tournament Fishing too, but worried that having it shipped from the US might lead to some extra custom fees.
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Drugo81 wrote:
Quote:
The way I interpret that is based on how my game design integrates with and brings out the theme, since none of the games (mine or Brian's) do anything new under the sun as far as mechanisms go.


I think Coldwater Crown worker placement mechanic is quite original, haven't seen it implemented it that way in other games.

But anyhow, I'd like to play Tournament Fishing too, but worried that having it shipped from the US might lead to some extra custom fees.


True, but at the end of the day, what it amounts to is placing 2 workers with some of them (the 2’s) being more powerful.

There is a free full resolution PnP of the game as well and it’s also free on Tabletop Simulator.
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Quote:
There is a free full resolution PnP of the game as well and it’s also free on Tabletop Simulator.


Thanks, I will look into trying it out.

Quote:
True, but at the end of the day, what it amounts to is placing 2 workers with some of them (the 2’s) being more powerful.


I think the cool part is that no matter the number of players, the number of available spots is always the same. That's also why it works well in solo in my opinion.
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Drugo81 wrote:
Quote:
There is a free full resolution PnP of the game as well and it’s also free on Tabletop Simulator.


Thanks, I will look into trying it out.

Quote:
True, but at the end of the day, what it amounts to is placing 2 workers with some of them (the 2’s) being more powerful.


I think the cool part is that no matter the number of players, the number of available spots is always the same. That's also why it works well in solo in my opinion.


Sweet! I’d love to know what you think if you try it.

Yes most WP games have a variable available spot count based on player #. CC does some things different, for sure. I overstated my case if you take what I said wooden and literal about “nothing new under the sun”. I was generalizing and speaking more of in broad terms of boiling the mechanisms down to the foundations. In other words “what they amount to” is not new. But there are nuances in all games that nothing else does in quite the same way.
 
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Tournament Fishing is a deckbuilder where you generate a high enough number on your turn to collect an equal or lesser size fish card. Coldwater is a euro game and I believe so is the new fly fishing game. Apples and oranges.

I’d also disagree that Kickstarter is the ONLY way to go and do something like crowdsource a game. Kickstarter has more times than not become formulaic preorder system with well known designers and proven game companies. Gotta have fake stretch goals, demanded regular communication on game production / shipping status, etc... That is often times much more than what a 1 person company can handle. Plus there are many people with their hands out asking for a share of the profit with Kickstarter. The way Greg went with Tournament Fishing in its current form I believe was a great approach that he can leverage to build a brand and reputation for future iterations of game design.
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Hey Greg,

We're excited that you had a successful Crowd Sale and the best part is it's already in the queue and going into production. No extra hassles like after a Kickstarter. It's true we have a much smaller audience than KS but that's okay for a new game designer who's building their brand and reputation.

Jason Glover at Grey Gnome Games is a great guy to follow because he started with a simple trick taking game and now has a long list of titles that are doing well on Kickstarter and Crowd Sales. His day job is a plumber and game designer/publisher is what he does after hours. I'd say he does an amazing job and is a great mentor for new indie designers like you.

Keep in mind that you can always do Kickstarter campaigns and sign publishing deals for your games after they start out at The Game Crafter. There is no negative to doing that. As an example, JT Smith, (our CEO and co-founder) developed The Captain Is Dead and several thousand copies on The Game Crafter before it was Kickstarted and then published by AEG. (where it now has several expansions as well)

Anyway, I also wanted to let you know that Gerald King from Ultimate Team-up will be doing a recurring show with game designers who are using The Game Crafter for Crowd Sales as well as Kickstarter fulfillment. He should be reaching out to you to in the near future to see if you want to participate. It should be a nice opportunity for you to get some additional exposure and we love helping designers in our community with that.

If you don't hear from him in a week or two, please feel free to ping me or contact TGC support and we'll get in touch. Thanks and congrats again on the successful campaign. The medium stout box you used is great and we featured your game at our booth during GAMA Trade Show 2019.
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thegamecrafter wrote:
Hey Greg,

We're excited that you had a successful Crowd Sale and the best part is it's already in the queue and going into production. No extra hassles like after a Kickstarter. It's true we have a much smaller audience than KS but that's okay for a new game designer who's building their brand and reputation.

Jason Glover at Grey Gnome Games is a great guy to follow because he started with a simple trick taking game and now has a long list of titles that are doing well on Kickstarter and Crowd Sales. His day job is a plumber and game designer/publisher is what he does after hours. I'd say he does an amazing job and is a great mentor for new indie designers like you.

Keep in mind that you can always do Kickstarter campaigns and sign publishing deals for your games after they start out at The Game Crafter. There is no negative to doing that. As an example, JT Smith, (our CEO and co-founder) developed The Captain Is Dead and several thousand copies on The Game Crafter before it was Kickstarted and then published by AEG. (where it now has several expansions as well)

Anyway, I also wanted to let you know that Gerald King from Ultimate Team-up will be doing a recurring show with game designers who are using The Game Crafter for Crowd Sales as well as Kickstarter fulfillment. He should be reaching out to you to in the near future to see if you want to participate. It should be a nice opportunity for you to get some additional exposure and we love helping designers in our community with that.

If you don't hear from him in a week or two, please feel free to ping me or contact TGC support and we'll get in touch. Thanks and congrats again on the successful campaign. The medium stout box you used is great and we featured your game at our booth during GAMA Trade Show 2019.


Hi Tavis!

Yes, and what's more, some backers have already reported receiving their copies from the Crowd Sale! Mine is set to arrive Wednesday.

When I saw Jason do the Desolate crowd sale, I immediately got really excited because I had been thinking about a way to bring Tournament Fishing to the world, but KS and China manufacturing just seemed like too much of a hassle for 1 person to deal with. So when I found out how Jason did it, I immediately went to work on a new edition and updated everything in the game to be the best that I could make it. It gave me an avenue to pursue and I put my entire heart and focus into it.

One other thing that I love about the TGC route, is that I still completely own the rights to the game like you mentioned. I was talking to the designer of Leaving Earth the other day and it was about how the component quality of his game are not the best. I had asked him why he does not put it on TGC because the components on there are great and he said that he could not do that because he no longer owns the rights to the game. I am glad that I have the freedom to do and say what I want with my game. Sort of like owning your own company and being your own boss. Still, it does leave open the option to get the game signed by a game publisher in the future. I am open to that as well.

However, I do love the rewards that I got from this on TGC. Because of the sales goals that were reached, this allowed me to lower the game from $32.99 to $29.99 and still receive relatively the same benefit per copy. I get to pass those savings onto the customer and still make a couple dollars. I love that aspect.

I will be looking for Gerald's message and follow up if I don't hear anything.

If you guys would like to have me on the TGC podcast (which I now listen to all the time), I would like that as well. I want to let others know how to use these features and hope to see more one-man-show designers like Jason and I take advantage of it in the future.

I saw that you guy's highlighted TF at the GAMA Show. That was so awesome!

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sent me an instant message on Facebook holding that copy at the convention. I was completely blown away!
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