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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: How can Bystanders be KO'd rss

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Brian Stephens
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I am playing DFTGs "legacy" campaign. There is a +5 bonus to the Villain score if any bystanders are KO'd.

The Legendary rules state:
Quote:
• If the escaping Villain had any captured Bystanders, then each player must discard a card from their hand as a penalty for failing to rescue the Bystanders. After all, what kinds of Super Heroes let innocent Bystanders get carried away by Villains? Each player only discards one card, no matter how many Bystanders were carried away by that Villain. Put the captured Bystanders in the Escaped Villains pile.

Does this mean that the only way bystanders can be KO'd are by "Heroes" like Thanos or Speedball or by specific Scheme or Mastermind instructions?
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Desmond Grey
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Yes. KOed is different from “carried away”.

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Justin H

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Hey! Speedball is a Hero, he's not very good at it sometimes.
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Fernando Santos
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And Venom is a hero also, he... kind of likes people in a very very very special way...
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Magnus Poitier
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Facsantos wrote:
And Venom is a hero also, he... kind of likes people in a very very very special way...

Pfft, Venom has now appeared 3 times (twice as Agent Venom), and he's much more nicer with Bystanders than that Eddie version
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Jason McManus
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Some bystanders become heroes that go in your deck, so there is the chance that when you knockout one of your heroes you them out. Actually had that happen in a game recently.
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Shelley Hebert
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jam37wcc wrote:
Some bystanders become heroes that go in your deck, so there is the chance that when you knockout one of your heroes you them out. Actually had that happen in a game recently.

Do you count those towards KO'd heroes or bystanders? Different schemes count different things, and The Brood, for instance, power themselves up using KO'd bystanders.

SH
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Desmond Grey
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They are KOed Heroes. They become Heroes once they are rescued.
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Jason McManus
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shellex wrote:
jam37wcc wrote:
Some bystanders become heroes that go in your deck, so there is the chance that when you knockout one of your heroes you them out. Actually had that happen in a game recently.

Do you count those towards KO'd heroes or bystanders? Different schemes count different things, and The Brood, for instance, power themselves up using KO'd bystanders.

SH

I would count them as both, since technically they are both.
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Fromper Fromper
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jam37wcc wrote:
shellex wrote:
jam37wcc wrote:
Some bystanders become heroes that go in your deck, so there is the chance that when you knockout one of your heroes you them out. Actually had that happen in a game recently.

Do you count those towards KO'd heroes or bystanders? Different schemes count different things, and The Brood, for instance, power themselves up using KO'd bystanders.

SH

I would count them as both, since technically they are both.

Agreed. And now I'm kinda surprised I've never had this come up in any of my games.
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Shelley Hebert
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Fromper wrote:
jam37wcc wrote:
shellex wrote:
jam37wcc wrote:
Some bystanders become heroes that go in your deck, so there is the chance that when you knockout one of your heroes you them out. Actually had that happen in a game recently.

Do you count those towards KO'd heroes or bystanders? Different schemes count different things, and The Brood, for instance, power themselves up using KO'd bystanders.

SH

I would count them as both, since technically they are both.

Agreed. And now I'm kinda surprised I've never had this come up in any of my games.

If they're KO'd from the Bystander stack (say, due to The Brood's Fight effect), do they still count for both? We'd have to keep up with which came directly from the Bystander stack and which were rescued, then KO'd.

Maybe it's time to go back to the whole "cards have no memory" philosophy. In the KO or escape pile, they're bystanders. Period. In your deck, they're heroes. It maybe makes schemes easier that count non-grey heroes as a loss condition (if you can choose to KO a heroic bystander, do that to avoid adding to the loss condition).

SH

SH
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Jason McManus
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shellex wrote:
Fromper wrote:
jam37wcc wrote:
shellex wrote:
jam37wcc wrote:
Some bystanders become heroes that go in your deck, so there is the chance that when you knockout one of your heroes you them out. Actually had that happen in a game recently.

Do you count those towards KO'd heroes or bystanders? Different schemes count different things, and The Brood, for instance, power themselves up using KO'd bystanders.

SH

I would count them as both, since technically they are both.

Agreed. And now I'm kinda surprised I've never had this come up in any of my games.

If they're KO'd from the Bystander stack (say, due to The Brood's Fight effect), do they still count for both? We'd have to keep up with which came directly from the Bystander stack and which were rescued, then KO'd.

Maybe it's time to go back to the whole "cards have no memory" philosophy. In the KO or escape pile, they're bystanders. Period. In your deck, they're heroes. It maybe makes schemes easier that count non-grey heroes as a loss condition (if you can choose to KO a heroic bystander, do that to avoid adding to the loss condition).

SH

SH

I tend to lean towards whatever makes the game harder when I have to interpret a rule, unless an official ruling as been made.
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Desmond Grey
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Cards have no memory, correct. And no memory is required for rescued bystanders turned heroes because they have every icon that a Hero card has: cost, class, team affiliation (if applicable), and Recruit or Attack icons if needed. They’re Heroes once they’re rescued, and Heroes when KOed if they were rescued.

If they are KOed directly from the bystander deck, they were never rescued thus never Heroes. They are only KOed bystanders in that instance.

Counting them as both makes little sense to me and is over-complicating something that is fairly clear based on the rules. It’s clear when one is a bystander and when one is a Hero.
jam37wcc wrote:
I tend to lean towards whatever makes the game harder when I have to interpret a rule, unless an official ruling as been made.
Except counting them as both rather than what they are when they are KOed can make the game easier. Some heroes benefit from KOed bystanders (Thanos, Corvus, Speedball), and some benefit from KOed Heroes (Stingray). KOing a New Mutant after it has been rescued shouldn’t buff the likes of Thanos and KOing a New Mutant right from the bystander pile shouldn’t power up Stingray.

I tend to stick to the literal translations of the rules since that’s almost always the intent when an official ruling comes out.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Quote:
Optional Villain Score bonuses:
+5 if there were any bystanders in the KO Pile.

It seems to me that the bonus happens if there are any bystanders in the KO pile at the end of the game, regardless of how they got there.

But I would just ask DFTG to be sure.
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