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Subject: Wrong on so many levels! rss

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Ben Foy
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A male transsexual student posts a picture of himself using the Men's room.

A group of boys decide to 'protest' by taking a picture in the girls room.

A girl knees one of the boys as they try to enter the girls room.

The boys retreat.

The girl is expelled.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/15/boys-storme...
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Lola Granola
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What bullshit. Sounds like self defense to me, how would she know he wasn't one of those bathroom predators we're supposed to be worried about.
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Andrew Bartosh

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I really wish my fellow cis-men would stop being the reason we can't have nice things.
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Josh
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I smell an easy lawsuit by the girl's parents.
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Adrian Hague
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Huh, from the title, I thought this was going to be a thread about crime in multy-storey car-parks.
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Bat Profile
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Shadrach wrote:
I smell an easy lawsuit by the girl's parents.


I believe that scent is actually called "Large Cash Settlement No. 5"
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Bwian, just
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LolaGranola wrote:
What bullshit. Sounds like self defense to me, how would she know he wasn't one of those bathroom predators we're supposed to be worried about.

He had a peach frozen to his shoulder?

(Probably to cover up the chip...)
 
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John O'Haver
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North Pole, Alaska! That’s koldfoot’s stomping grounds. Wonder what he and the locals had to say about it.
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David
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I am kind of surprised that everyone thinks the girl was in the right here.

The boys should not have stormed into the girls' room. That was inappropriate (and they were punished for it). But if all they did was walk in to "protest," but were not being threatening, or taking pictures of the girls or anything like that, then how is it okay for a girl to initiate a physical assault? From reading the article, it's implied that she just kneed the first guy who came through the door. How is that okay? Of course she got suspended/expelled for assaulting another student.
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Wendell
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
I am kind of surprised that everyone thinks the girl was in the right here.

The boys should not have stormed into the girls' room. That was inappropriate (and they were punished for it). But if all they did was walk in to "protest," but were not being threatening, or taking pictures of the girls or anything like that, then how is it okay for a girl to initiate a physical assault? From reading the article, it's implied that she just kneed the first guy who came through the door. How is that okay? Of course she got suspended/expelled for assaulting another student.


A gang of guys rushing into a bathroom - she might have felt threatened. Could have been a knee-jerk response.
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I'm going to go ahead and put bathroom photographers in the same punchable category as neo-nazis. It's technically illegal, but totally justified.
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David
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wifwendell wrote:
A gang of guys rushing into a bathroom - she might have felt threatened. Could have been a knee-jerk response.



Maybe. I guess the specifics matter. But I'm a little skeptical of the "self-defense" claim, and I can't help thinking there is a bit of that old trope, where it's funny/justified when a woman kicks a guy in the balls (because he's a jerk, because he's rude, because he said something sexist, because she caught him cheating, etc.) but it wouldn't be okay if it was reversed.

Clearly, they shouldn't have been in there and I am glad they were disciplined too. I just don't understand why people think it's unjust that she was also disciplined for physically assaulting someone.
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Simon Jester
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Seven boys charged/tried to charge into a room where girls are routinely in a vulnerable position and often in a state of partial undress.

Without knowing more than that, the majority of scenarios I can construct have the girl damned well justified in feeling threatened.


Hell, the boys' stated intent was to take pictures of themselves in the girls' bathroom. Did they have their phones out when they tried to push their way in?
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Josh
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
A gang of guys rushing into a bathroom - she might have felt threatened. Could have been a knee-jerk response.



Maybe. I guess the specifics matter. But I'm a little skeptical of the "self-defense" claim, and I can't help thinking there is a bit of that old trope, where it's funny/justified when a woman kicks a guy in the balls (because he's a jerk, because he's rude, because he said something sexist, because she caught him cheating, etc.) but it wouldn't be okay if it was reversed.

Clearly, they shouldn't have been in there and I am glad they were disciplined too. I just don't understand why people think it's unjust that she was also disciplined for physically assaulting someone.


This is America, a group of trained officers can be in 'justified' fear of their lives from a sleeping man, but a girl faced by a group of boys piling into the bathroom door is supposed to play it cool.
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Josh
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Here's something most folks would (hopefully)not be aware of. A proper knee to the groin isn't some first-wave preemptove assault. To actually achieve anything many levels of personal space have to already have been breached and the knee-er needs to have fairly solid footing. Even then it's hit and miss.

That's why 'knee to the groun' is in comedy sketches and not really ever in self-defense classes.
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David
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Shadrach wrote:
Here's something most folks would (hopefully)not be aware of. A proper knee to the groin isn't some first-wave preemptove assault. To actually achieve anything many levels of personal space have to already have been breached and the knee-er needs to have fairly solid footing. Even then it's hit and miss.

That's why 'knee to the groun' is in comedy sketches and not really ever in self-defense classes.


Yeah, I know that. Which is why I think the specifics matter. In the article, she claimed she was being "blocked" - may or may not be true. If they were pointing cameras at girls, that changes the situation somewhat. If they were physically getting into her space, that changes the situation a lot.

But my knee-jerk (sorry) reaction was to the knee-jerk reaction a lot of people seem to be having, which is that it's totally cool to knee a guy for being obnoxious because OMG how dare they be in there? And yeah, they should not be in there, but kneeing someone in the groin is not trivial either. It's a level of escalation well above a shove or even a slap. So I think the "self defense" justification needs to be more substantial than "She was outraged that boys were entering the girls' bathroom."
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
A gang of guys rushing into a bathroom - she might have felt threatened. Could have been a knee-jerk response.



Maybe. I guess the specifics matter. But I'm a little skeptical of the "self-defense" claim, and I can't help thinking there is a bit of that old trope, where it's funny/justified when a woman kicks a guy in the balls (because he's a jerk, because he's rude, because he said something sexist, because she caught him cheating, etc.) but it wouldn't be okay if it was reversed.


A group of people who don't belong there storm into your bathroom, you're absolutely right to feel threatened. If this was girls storming into the boys bathroom and a boy there felt threatened and did the same thing, I'd say the same thing.

However, *in addition to that*, if I'm to speculate a bit given what we know of the boys (that they're transphobic asshats who would storm into the girl's bathroom unannounced), I think there's a high likelihood they weren't exactly known as being respectful to women, and the girl might very well be familiar with them. Add in that (if US stats somewhat resemble Swedish stats) bathrooms the most common place in a school for rapists to assault their victims, and you have another layer of reason for her to be afraid.

And, lastly, add in the comment by the school that (paraphrasing as I can't access the article anymore) "violence isn't an acceptable means to security" and it seems clear that her act was defensive; she was expelled for defending herself even by the schools admission, if one is to take that quote into account.
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Junior McSpiffy
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I'm just still trying to get over the taking-a-picture-of-himself-in-a-bathroom portion of things. It doesn't justify the overreaction of the gang of invaders, but I really hope we don't get some #SeeHowIPee movement. But society today...
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David
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sajberhippien wrote:
A group of people who don't belong there storm into your bathroom, you're absolutely right to feel threatened. If this was girls storming into the boys bathroom and a boy there felt threatened and did the same thing, I'd say the same thing.


I wouldn't. I'd say he'd better justify feeling "threatened" beyond "They shouldn't have been in there."


Quote:
However, *in addition to that*, if I'm to speculate a bit given what we know of the boys (that they're transphobic asshats who would storm into the girl's bathroom unannounced), I think there's a high likelihood they weren't exactly known as being respectful to women, and the girl might very well be familiar with them.


Well, that's a lot of speculation. They were being assholes because they didn't like a transguy taking pictures in the mens' room. Their reaction was inappropriate. Going straight to "Therefore they're all terrible people who very likely might have been rapists" is quite a leap.

Quote:
And, lastly, add in the comment by the school that (paraphrasing as I can't access the article anymore) "violence isn't an acceptable means to security" and it seems clear that her act was defensive; she was expelled for defending herself even by the schools admission, if one is to take that quote into account.


I don't see how that quote establishes that she was actually defending herself against threat of violence.
 
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Junior McSpiffy
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:

Quote:
However, *in addition to that*, if I'm to speculate a bit given what we know of the boys (that they're transphobic asshats who would storm into the girl's bathroom unannounced), I think there's a high likelihood they weren't exactly known as being respectful to women, and the girl might very well be familiar with them.


Well, that's a lot of speculation. They were being assholes because they didn't like a transguy taking pictures in the mens' room. Their reaction was inappropriate. Going straight to "Therefore they're all terrible people who very likely might have been rapists" is quite a leap.


Unless there was some lengthy and public campaign about what was going to happen*, the girls in the bathroom at the time would have had no idea or understanding that they were there to protest something entirely unrelated to them. They would have just seen a gang of guys helping themselves into their bathroom. They would have had no context to this except for that.





* Even if there had been, that doesn't justify what they chose to do. I've said it in other instances, so I'll be consistent and say it here... find a better way to protest.
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Josh
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GameCrossing wrote:
I'm just still trying to get over the taking-a-picture-of-himself-in-a-bathroom portion of things. It doesn't justify the overreaction of the gang of invaders, but I really hope we don't get some #SeeHowIPee movement. But society today...


For the transmale it makes sense because it is a milestone. Also bathroom selfies are a thing because bathrooms normally have bright/good lighting. For the dudes it was ignorant bullshittery since they were trying to draw a parallel between cis/trans actions.
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
sajberhippien wrote:
A group of people who don't belong there storm into your bathroom, you're absolutely right to feel threatened. If this was girls storming into the boys bathroom and a boy there felt threatened and did the same thing, I'd say the same thing.


I wouldn't. I'd say he'd better justify feeling "threatened" beyond "They shouldn't have been in there."


Quote:
However, *in addition to that*, if I'm to speculate a bit given what we know of the boys (that they're transphobic asshats who would storm into the girl's bathroom unannounced), I think there's a high likelihood they weren't exactly known as being respectful to women, and the girl might very well be familiar with them.


Well, that's a lot of speculation. They were being assholes because they didn't like a transguy taking pictures in the mens' room. Their reaction was inappropriate. Going straight to "Therefore they're all terrible people who very likely might have been rapists" is quite a leap.

Quote:
And, lastly, add in the comment by the school that (paraphrasing as I can't access the article anymore) "violence isn't an acceptable means to security" and it seems clear that her act was defensive; she was expelled for defending herself even by the schools admission, if one is to take that quote into account.


I don't see how that quote establishes that she was actually defending herself against threat of violence.


Depends on the law, in some parts of the world - you can claim self defense if you merely feel threatened.

of course then it's up to a jury to decide if they then find that claim reasonable.
 
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Daniel Kearns
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
A gang of guys rushing into a bathroom - she might have felt threatened. Could have been a knee-jerk response.



Maybe. I guess the specifics matter. But I'm a little skeptical of the "self-defense" claim, and I can't help thinking there is a bit of that old trope, where it's funny/justified when a woman kicks a guy in the balls (because he's a jerk, because he's rude, because he said something sexist, because she caught him cheating, etc.) but it wouldn't be okay if it was reversed.

Clearly, they shouldn't have been in there and I am glad they were disciplined too. I just don't understand why people think it's unjust that she was also disciplined for physically assaulting someone.

There isn't irony in the fact that the bathroom warriors are all about protecting women in the bathroom so to protest a transgender student they rush a women's bathroom to take pictures?
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David
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dkearns wrote:
There isn't irony in the fact that the bathroom warriors are all about protecting women in the bathroom so to protest a transgender student they rush a women's bathroom to take pictures?


I don't think "protecting women in the bathroom" was their motive. They were assholes and they should be punished. But so does someone who throws punches (or knees).
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Daniel Kearns
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
dkearns wrote:
There isn't irony in the fact that the bathroom warriors are all about protecting women in the bathroom so to protest a transgender student they rush a women's bathroom to take pictures?


I don't think "protecting women in the bathroom" was their motive. They were assholes and they should be punished. But so does someone who throws punches (or knees).

I thought protecting women was the whole narrative for bathroom regulations against transgendered people in general.

Women can protect themselves. Again this is probably a case where she would have gotten in less trouble if she just shot one of them in self-defense.
 
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