Mark Ostyn
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In the era of app-driven games, I think it’s fair to start asking what the line is between video and board games. From what I’ve seen about this game, it has more in common with an old Final Fantasy game than D&D. I wouldn’t pay $100 for a video game with the graphics and complexity of something 20-years old, and I wouldn’t pay $100 for a board game with less in the box than Imperial Assault or Rebellion. What justifies this game’s existence?
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Jeff Kayati
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Seriously?

What is it about this game that draws so many malcontents to comment on how they don't want the game?

Don't like it? Don't want it? Fine. Don't buy it.

Just move along, please.
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Joe D
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It's almost EXACTLY like Final Fantasy VII, but with a shallow Middle-Earth re-theme. Also, you don't actually use any of the physical pieces to play the game AT ALL. The figures and cards are just extra swag... think of it like a collector's edition of a video game that comes with some physical trinkets as keepsakes.

All kidding aside though, probably 20% of the discussion about this game is people whining about the app (presumably taking a break from telling kids to get off their lawn and to turn down that damn music). There are literally hundreds and hundreds of other NON-app board games and card games, including quite a few Lord of the Rings ones... why not check some of those out instead?
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"Drewbacca"
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What's a board game...?
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Kevin Seachrist
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If you're only looking at the cost in terms of how much of that experience is cardboard vs electrons, you're not factoring in development costs for each game, which for this game doesn't end with a print run. You're not paying for cardboard alone. You're paying for ongoing support for an app that can bring you new content and errata instantly and automatically.

More importantly, what I think most app critics are missing is the shared experience of sitting down at the table for a game with your friends. At that point having an app sit in as game master is a marvelous innovation for any of us who are normally stuck with being GM when they'd really rather just play a character in the story. Yes, I'm very willing to pay for that.

I have to admit I'm not drawn to these sorts of games as a solo experience, though, because then I really would rather play a video game and all the benefits doing so provides (not the least of which is zero setup/teardown). Boardgaming is about socializing for me, and if part of the experience is cardboard and another part is electronic, but we're still sitting at a game table face to face? I'm in.
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Rykaar wrote:
More importantly, what I think most app critics are missing is the shared experience of sitting down at the table for a game with your friends. At that point having an app sit in as game master is a marvelous innovation for any of us who are normally stuck with being GM when they'd really rather just play a character in the story.


For some reason the people who hate apps have the impression that all everybody does is stare at the screen 99% of the time, which isn't true with the Descent app, probably isn't true of Mansions of Madness (I haven't played it) and also doesn't appear to be true with this game (based on preview videos I've seen).
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Peter G
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You are paying for an experience, not just a product.

This experience happens to require physical objects (as all board games do) and virtual applications (which isn't unique to this game) to create and enhance it.

Components matter, but they only exist to service the game play experience.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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Rykaar wrote:

More importantly, what I think most app critics are missing is the shared experience of sitting down at the table for a game with your friends.


Or even better... being able to play solo!
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jkayati wrote:
Seriously?

What is it about this game that draws so many malcontents to comment on how they don't want the game?

Don't like it? Don't want it? Fine. Don't buy it.

Just move along, please.


This seems to happen with any game that has some hype attached to it. You get a mix of those:

* Who only seem to exist only to criticize every new release and need to make it clear that they will never buy it.
* Who were interested in the game (maybe the theme or they want every game that comes out) but due to some aspect are very unhappy -- too many dice vs no dice; app driven vs no app; legacy vs not; competitive vs solo/co-op; not enough value in the box.
* Who need to compare the game (no one has played) to another game (that to them is the best game ever made). There is barely any similarity between the two games.
* Who are collectors who are angry they didn't get the pre-order promos and now that they can't have it all they will not buy.
* Who want to speculate about the next 10 expansions and how soon they will come.
* Who want to make the same old jokes, such as about the game being dead.
* Who want to inform us of every shipping status change of their pre-order.
* Who know the game is the best game ever and have already 3D printed or bought a tray, have custom ungraded components coming, and will be listing it all for sale in a few weeks.
* Who want to discuss the game in a reasonable way both positive and negative.
* Who want to gatekeep opinions on the game.
* Who are just waiting to ask the same question (is this card missing, the same rule everyone seems to get wrong) at least 4 times a day in the forum.

The real fun comes after everyone gets the game and all the groups grow. Best to wait six months or more until (most) forums settle into nice places to discuss the game when all the non-players are gone.
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medphys88 wrote:
In the era of app-driven games, I think it’s fair to start asking what the line is between video and board games. From what I’ve seen about this game, it has more in common with an old Final Fantasy game than D&D. I wouldn’t pay $100 for a video game with the graphics and complexity of something 20-years old, and I wouldn’t pay $100 for a board game with less in the box than Imperial Assault or Rebellion. What justifies this game’s existence?


Probably the same thing that justifies this post’s existence... someone wanted to make it and so they did.
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Jerry Hawthorne
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I’m interested in this game precisely because of the app. I have no problems handing over menial bookkeeping and component clutter to an electronic device. In my opinion the app is a facilitator, not a detractor from the experience. To me, this is value added.
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Peter Johnsson
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medphys88 wrote:
In the era of app-driven games, I think it’s fair to start asking what the line is between video and board games. From what I’ve seen about this game, it has more in common with an old Final Fantasy game than D&D. I wouldn’t pay $100 for a video game with the graphics and complexity of something 20-years old, and I wouldn’t pay $100 for a board game with less in the box than Imperial Assault or Rebellion. What justifies this game’s existence?

LOL, here we go again ...
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nobeerblues wrote:
I’m interested in this game precisely because of the app. I have no problems handing over menial bookkeeping and component clutter to an electronic device. In my opinion the app is a facilitator, not a detractor from the experience. To me, this is value added.


Do you think there is more value in app facilitated games either solo or group players? Or is the main value in just allowing designers to create more "complex" games free of fiddly book keeping elements?

You know what would be awesome -- an app for solo gamers who want to play Dead of Winter but all their friends are Euro-gamers with short attention spans. whistle
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Justin Bolles
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I'm seriously wanting to unsubscribe to this game because of these posts. Let us enjoy this game in peace. shake
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Colin Baker
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Quote:
What justifies this game’s existence?
That would be us.
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inaholeintheground wrote:
I'm seriously wanting to unsubscribe to this game because of these posts. Let us enjoy this game in peace. shake


Frequently for hot new releases I eventually ignore everything but news threads, especially if the game has a controversial element, such as legacy or an app. Eventually all the threads seem to become rants or flames. Just go away for a while, get the game play it, and come back in a few months.

Or find the Reddit group for the game, frequently they seem to be better communities these days.
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David Matzer
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WHAT THIS GAME HAS AN APP?!?! What's this about the board game elements being superfluous? I guess I need to cancel my preorder since your post just changed my mind.

Seriously though I am looking forward to playing this pseudo video/board game. Looks like a fun immersive experience.
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Andy B
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medphys88 wrote:
In the era of app-driven games, I think it’s fair to start asking what the line is between video and board games. From what I’ve seen about this game, it has more in common with an old Final Fantasy game than D&D. I wouldn’t pay $100 for a video game with the graphics and complexity of something 20-years old, and I wouldn’t pay $100 for a board game with less in the box than Imperial Assault or Rebellion. What justifies this game’s existence?


Each copy of the game comes with a tablet and the app preloaded. It’s designed that way so even luddites who can’t embrace the 21st century can still enjoy the game.


whistle
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These posts exist because they’re justified. Feel free to enjoy the game, and feel free to ignore the legitimate criticisms of it. But it’s folly to dismiss them. The half-filled (if that) core box is absolutely a ripoff by itself for $80, but especially because it’s designed to draw you in for buying endless expansions. The mediocre story, lackluster combat tiles, and lack of meaningful distinction between bad guy classes, alongside simplistic, repetitive gameplay are issues that flow into both value and gameplay criticisms.

Fact is: no one would care about Journeys if it didn’t have the LOTR skin. That says pretty much everything. You’re paying an arm and a leg to walk around in and collect Middle Earth, a world made great by others, and diminished here by Fantasy Flight.

I and many others were hoping for something great from a LOTR campaign game, which has so much potential. Unfortunately, FF did not deliver.

A company like FF will only respond to market forces. Some of us like to push companies to do better by publicizing fair criticisms and encouraging people to withhold their support.

Others like to say, “yes sir. Thank you sir. And please sir may I have another?” The fact that so many people here are willing to totally dismiss the game’s blatant weaknesses in favor of a desire to want to like it is discouraging.

Of course, it’s discouraging in a routine way, because the internet is chock full of people looking to rationalize their emotional and hype-driven desires rather than basing their desires in anything rational.
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Michael Carter
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ibnez120 wrote:
These posts exist because they’re justified. Feel free to enjoy the game, and feel free to ignore the legitimate criticisms of it. But it’s folly to dismiss them. The half-filled (if that) core box is absolutely a ripoff by itself for $80, but especially because it’s designed to draw you in for buying endless expansions. The mediocre story, lackluster combat tiles, and lack of meaningful distinction between bad guy classes, alongside simplistic, repetitive gameplay are issues that flow into both value and gameplay criticisms.

Fact is: no one would care about Journeys if it didn’t have the LOTR skin. That says pretty much everything. You’re paying an arm and a leg to walk around in and collect Middle Earth, a world made great by others, and diminished here by Fantasy Flight.

I and many others were hoping for something great from a LOTR campaign game, which has so much potential. Unfortunately, FF did not deliver.

A company like FF will only respond to market forces. Some of us like to push companies to do better by publicizing fair criticisms and encouraging people to withhold their support.

Others like to say, “yes sir. Thank you sir. And please sir may I have another?” The fact that so many people here are willing to totally dismiss the game’s blatant weaknesses in favor of a desire to want to like it is discouraging.

Of course, it’s discouraging in a routine way, because the internet is chock full of people looking to rationalize their emotional and hype-driven desires rather than basing their desires in anything rational.


Alternatively, different horses for different courses.
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Paul Sauberer
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ibnez120 wrote:
These posts exist because they’re justified. Feel free to enjoy the game, and feel free to ignore the legitimate criticisms of it. But it’s folly to dismiss them. The half-filled (if that) core box is absolutely a ripoff by itself for $80, but especially because it’s designed to draw you in for buying endless expansions. The mediocre story, lackluster combat tiles, and lack of meaningful distinction between bad guy classes, alongside simplistic, repetitive gameplay are issues that flow into both value and gameplay criticisms.

Fact is: no one would care about Journeys if it didn’t have the LOTR skin. That says pretty much everything. You’re paying an arm and a leg to walk around in and collect Middle Earth, a world made great by others, and diminished here by Fantasy Flight.

I and many others were hoping for something great from a LOTR campaign game, which has so much potential. Unfortunately, FF did not deliver.

A company like FF will only respond to market forces. Some of us like to push companies to do better by publicizing fair criticisms and encouraging people to withhold their support.

Others like to say, “yes sir. Thank you sir. And please sir may I have another?” The fact that so many people here are willing to totally dismiss the game’s blatant weaknesses in favor of a desire to want to like it is discouraging.

Of course, it’s discouraging in a routine way, because the internet is chock full of people looking to rationalize their emotional and hype-driven desires rather than basing their desires in anything rational.


How many times have you played?
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Jeff Kayati
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ibnez120 wrote:
These posts exist because they’re justified. Feel free to enjoy the game, and feel free to ignore the legitimate criticisms of it. But it’s folly to dismiss them. The half-filled (if that) core box is absolutely a ripoff by itself for $80, but especially because it’s designed to draw you in for buying endless expansions. The mediocre story, lackluster combat tiles, and lack of meaningful distinction between bad guy classes, alongside simplistic, repetitive gameplay are issues that flow into both value and gameplay criticisms.

Fact is: no one would care about Journeys if it didn’t have the LOTR skin. That says pretty much everything. You’re paying an arm and a leg to walk around in and collect Middle Earth, a world made great by others, and diminished here by Fantasy Flight.

I and many others were hoping for something great from a LOTR campaign game, which has so much potential. Unfortunately, FF did not deliver.

A company like FF will only respond to market forces. Some of us like to push companies to do better by publicizing fair criticisms and encouraging people to withhold their support.

Others like to say, “yes sir. Thank you sir. And please sir may I have another?” The fact that so many people here are willing to totally dismiss the game’s blatant weaknesses in favor of a desire to want to like it is discouraging.

Of course, it’s discouraging in a routine way, because the internet is chock full of people looking to rationalize their emotional and hype-driven desires rather than basing their desires in anything rational.


Fanboy hatred seems to burn the hottest.

Move along now.
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Chris J Davis
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ibnez120 wrote:
...rather than basing their desires in anything rational.


Completely unlike you, of course...

Remind us again how many times you've played this game...?
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I'm hoping someone else in my group will pick it up so I can try it out. I'm app-averse, but I've come to realize the "Yay! Apps!" people are the loud majority. For me, it's more about keeping my anachronistic, analog games just that. Though I don't mind value-added apps that allow an extra mode like Imperial Assault. If I'm already lugging around a huge box, minis, decks of cards, manuals, etc, I'm not thrilled about putting the ability to use my game in the hands of software (ie, app-required, like this one).

If I'm not thrilled, why am I here? I like Lord of the Rings games. I also like Runebound 3rd Edition, which has been lightly mixed into the mechanics here. And I like the general vibe of the game. Being a discussion forum means people should be free to discuss, both good and bad. As long as it isn't trolling, that's kind of the point, right?

Along those lines, sure this thread may be redundant. But the whole "there are other games, go play those"....doesn't work. Makes you look worse than the person you're trying to bully off the forum.
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app vs board game, video vs physical game - all pointless discussions as we live in the Matrix and anything is virtual or a video game (just not one we are playing)

oh sorry, spoiler alert


(although the final judgment is not out yet, the matrix could run as a holodeck program on a ship in the 24th century (although possibly fictional from the 20th century - before the matrix was designed (I know it's confusing, are we fictional and worry about the reality of a game (((...))) ) ) )
what was the question again?

live long and take the blue pill!
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