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Subject: Mons Insurance (promo company) rss

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kaha preclo
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Very interesting concept.

High mc product. High initial mc, although could be quite low if in 5-player games.

The effect is only negative. Ants or Predators would give it a very bad day.

I think the corp is too swingy in player count. Probably great in 2-p, terrible in 5-p games.
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Derry Salewski
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Seems terrible. I doubt I'll add it to the game.
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Brad Keusch
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scifiantihero wrote:
Seems terrible. I doubt I'll add it to the game.


Hmm. I wouldn't sleep on this, a lot of the early generations are defined by razor thin margins. The -2 ME production to everyone else coupled with the increase in your own is a pretty big swing. Like kaha noted, probably it gets worse in multi player games but in a 2-3 player game this could be pretty powerful.
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Eric Sawler
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Yeah, it seems great at lower player counts. Even a pretty strong solo corp, since you'll get only benefit.
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Derry Salewski
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anatana wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Seems terrible. I doubt I'll add it to the game.


Hmm. I wouldn't sleep on this, a lot of the early generations are defined by razor thin margins. The -2 ME production to everyone else coupled with the increase in your own is a pretty big swing. Like kaha noted, probably it gets worse in multi player games but in a 2-3 player game this could be pretty powerful.


Yeah you're right probably about low player counts. At 2 it might be pretty great since you can just spend all your money before you hit them with attack cards if you buy them, or just ignore them.
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Bill Buchanan
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It adds some interaction to the game, and that can be very welcome to some players. It's nice that it's a promo corp, so people can decide on their own if they want it or not.
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Bill Buchanan
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Incidentally, game designer has replied in linked thread below that the initial -2MC per player does NOT require the Mons Insurance player to pay out 3MC ...

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2187014/mons-insurance-prom...
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Y P
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WBuchanan wrote:
Incidentally, game designer has replied in linked thread below that the initial -2MC per player does NOT require the Mons Insurance player to pay out 3MC ...

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2187014/mons-insurance-prom...

I sure would hope not. It's pretty terrible as is without that. Are there any other corps that don't give ongoing positive effects to the player/owner?
 
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Steve Clark
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webslinger9 wrote:
Yeah, it seems great at lower player counts. Even a pretty strong solo corp, since you'll get only benefit.


I'm not sure about this, as the neutral player has infinite stuff to steal/smash...so you may have to pay 3MC for the production-reducers. (asteroids etc. are fine, as removing resources is optional)

I've asked about it in the other thread.
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Bill Buchanan
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MentatYP wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
Incidentally, game designer has replied in linked thread below that the initial -2MC per player does NOT require the Mons Insurance player to pay out 3MC ...

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2187014/mons-insurance-prom...

I sure would hope not. It's pretty terrible as is without that. Are there any other corps that don't give ongoing positive effects to the player/owner?


I'm not sure how terrible it is. You start off with +6MC production then your opponent(s).

It will be very important to spend all your money as fast as possible though.

It's a promo card. I like that they are trying out new things with those.
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G K
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MentatYP wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
Incidentally, game designer has replied in linked thread below that the initial -2MC per player does NOT require the Mons Insurance player to pay out 3MC ...

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2187014/mons-insurance-prom...

I sure would hope not. It's pretty terrible as is without that. Are there any other corps that don't give ongoing positive effects to the player/owner?


Polyphemos.

This one does look challenging, but in the right situation it might work. There are only about 28 29 cards that you might have to pay a claim on. As long as you don't pay out gen 1 and average less than 2 claims/gen afterwards (you're [6MC] ahead of everyone else), you're doing ok. (Here's my count of covered cards, did I miss any?)

- Start with a few attack cards in hand. You can either ditch em all and guarantee they don't pay claims unless the deck shuffles (less and less likely with all the expansions in) or try to play them with your last cash each generation.
- Turn that money production into other stuff with cards like Lunar Beam, Loan and Minority Refuge so you can go broke faster each generation and stiff people on their claims.
- Get Card Draw. Bury or use those attack cards yourself. Find big cards that let you go broke fast each generation.
 
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Paul Couch
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This Corp utterly wrecks Robinson Industries. Instead of building titanium, power or plants, they must first get themselves out of the hole.
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Bill Buchanan
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Robo Fish wrote:
This Corp utterly wrecks Robinson Industries. Instead of building titanium, power or plants, they must first get themselves out of the hole.



Not to hard to raise your MC production.
 
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Fitz Fitz
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WBuchanan wrote:
Robo Fish wrote:
This Corp utterly wrecks Robinson Industries. Instead of building titanium, power or plants, they must first get themselves out of the hole.



Not to hard to raise your MC production.


Well, you definetly need to start by this then and have a plan of action. It does wreck them imo.
I played Robinson Industries 3 hours ago and wouldn't have been able to do the set of actions I did if someone had taken this company.
 
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Bill Buchanan
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Fitz_ wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
Robo Fish wrote:
This Corp utterly wrecks Robinson Industries. Instead of building titanium, power or plants, they must first get themselves out of the hole.



Not to hard to raise your MC production.


Well, you definetly need to start by this then and have a plan of action. It does wreck them imo.


That reminds me of when people say something is 'broken' in a game.
 
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Fitz Fitz
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WBuchanan wrote:
Fitz_ wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
Robo Fish wrote:
This Corp utterly wrecks Robinson Industries. Instead of building titanium, power or plants, they must first get themselves out of the hole.



Not to hard to raise your MC production.


Well, you definetly need to start by this then and have a plan of action. It does wreck them imo.


That reminds me of when people say something is 'broken' in a game.


Doesn't seem the same to me.
 
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Bill Buchanan
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Fitz_ wrote:


Doesn't seem the same to me.


I guess we have different definitions of the meaning of the word "wreck" then ...


I'd rather have Robinson Industries when Mons Insurance is in play, then most other corps. At least Robinson Industries can use their effect to raise their MC back to normal in 2 generations, without having to play any other card.

Does it make it harder for them? Sure.
Wreck them? Nah.

Does Mons Insurance make is harder for every other corp too? Ya.
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Fitz Fitz
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WBuchanan wrote:
Fitz_ wrote:


Doesn't seem the same to me.


I guess we have different definitions of the meaning of the word "wreck" then ...


I'd rather have Robinson Industries when Mons Insurance is in play, then most other corps. At least Robinson Industries can use their effect to raise their MC back to normal in 2 generations, without having to play any other card.

Does it make it harder for them? Sure.
Wreck them? Nah.

Does Mons Insurance make is harder for every other corp too? Ya.


As RI, you don't want to waste your action on raising your MC/turn but rather on plants or titanium which are individually worth way more than 1 gold. So, in order to be able to play your RI game the best way (raising manually with cards the cheap ressource production (Gold, heat, or even steel) and raising with your corporation power the costly and more rare ressource production (plants and titanium)), you need to FIRST raise your gold production at least two steps. It's way harder and this is why I think Mons hurts RI harder than some other corps.

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Bill Buchanan
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Fitz_ wrote:


As RI, you don't want to waste your action on raising your MC/turn but rather on plants or titanium which are individually worth way more than 1 gold. So, in order to be able to play your RI game the best way (raising manually with cards the cheap ressource production (Gold, heat, or even steel) and raising with your corporation power the costly and more rare ressource production (plants and titanium)), you need to FIRST raise your gold production at least two steps. It's way harder and this is why I think Mons hurts RI harder than some other corps.



I understand completely, that is what you think.
 
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RyuSora
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I agree, you dont want to be robinson vs this corp.
It may be meaningless, considering you could easily easy your mc.
Or it may be really painful
 
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Mike Pye
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kahapreclo wrote:
I think the corp is too swingy in player count. Probably great in 2-p, terrible in 5-p games.


Do you think it could be made less swingy by making the MC gain proportional to player count? Like all opponents lose 2MC production, and you gain 2MC production per opponent.

So in a 5 player game you would be starting with +8MC production.

 
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Lukas Vitroler
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+8MC over others is a huge jump start over the others. That would be too powerful imo
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Mike Pye
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That is true, but it incentivises other players to use the take that cards more. If there were 1-2 'attacks' each generation (feels like a possibility in a 5 player game), then quite a significant amount of that extra would be getting lost.

Just attempting to do some Maths now..

There are 395 cards in the deck, according to this link: (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/164572/item/4810582#i...)

I looked through mine (including all expansions except turmoil), and counted 29 with 'take that' elements to them, a bit over 7% of all cards. 2 are repeatable (ants and predators) so can be used every round after they are played. I am however for simplicity's sake ignoring this.

According to this website (https://ssimeonoff.github.io/stats), a 5 player game usually lasts 9 or 10 rounds:

9 round game
180 cards minimum will be seen
13 will have 'take that'
If all are taken and used, Mons Insurance will lose 39 MC over the game
But Mons Insurance gains 72 from the extra production
Overall gain = 33MC

10 round game
200 cards minimum will be seen
15 will have 'take that'
If all are taken and used, Mons Insurance will lose 45 MC over the game
But Mons Insurance gains 80 from the extra production
Overall gain = 35MC

This does seem quite strong overall, especially when you take into account the fact that everyone else gets a slowdown.

Comparing the above with the corporation as it stands...

9 round game
180 cards minimum will be seen
13 will have 'take that'
If all are taken and used, Mons Insurance will lose 39 MC over the game
But Mons Insurance gains 36 from the extra production
Overall loss = 3MC

10 round game
200 cards minimum will be seen
15 will have 'take that'
If all are taken and used, Mons Insurance will lose 45 MC over the game
But Mons Insurance gains 40 from the extra production
Overall loss = 5MC

So if the corporation remains as it is, they would be expected to make a loss in a 5 player game (again, assuming the other players take and use as many take-that cards as they can, on average).

So I guess the question is whether the +4MC production for Mons Insurance and -2MC production for everyone else is enough to make up the difference...

I feel like I have ended up back where I started!
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Lukas Vitroler
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but also consider that in the first draft there will be 10x5 cards and I dont know about others but usually I dont keep the take that cards in the first draft and no one usually plays the takethat cards in the first 1-2 rounds as most do not have plants, animals and/or production?

so I dont think Mons will ever take a loss with any player count.
 
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Vincent Lacroix
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Just one thing, do you have to pay 3 MC for each production/ressource lost by another player, or only once per effect (think deimos down: 3MC or 24?gulp)

It is still a corpo going in a new and distinct direction, which is good I think. It will sure upset your opponentns, since the first three generation can be really tight moneywise, and it could prevent them to play their turn 2 efficiently.
 
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