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Subject: Ruthless Coercion - use any time? rss

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Gemma McLean
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I was only playing Ruthless Coercion during interaction in a City/Village etc until now, but just thought...is there anything stopping me using it during my movement to just ready units? If needed could I combine with other Influence cards to generate more to ready more units?
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Cadae
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As of the Lost Legion expansion you can play influence effects any time during your turn. So yes, you could play it during movement and combine it with other influence. Keep in mind all the influence is lost when your action starts so you couldn't save leftover points for interaction or combat later
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Ben Kyo
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gemixin wrote:
I was only playing Ruthless Coercion during interaction in a City/Village etc until now, but just thought...is there anything stopping me using it during my movement to just ready units? If needed could I combine with other Influence cards to generate more to ready more units?

It has the healing symbol, so not in combat. Not sure if the interaction symbol has any significance, post-lost legion.

EDIT: On reflection, it is weird that Ruthless Coercion is the only(?) influence card that can't be used to "coerce" Thugs to take damage, or Heroes to participate in an assault, or with Diplomacy. Note how Peaceful Moment gets around this by requiring an Action to benefit from Healing, but does not have the Healing symbol itself. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is another unanticipated result of Krang's design that wasn't really thought through. If someone playing with me wanted to say that only the "ready units" effect counted as "healing" (not usable in combat), and the minor effect didn't, I'd be OK with that.
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Ali Cali
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Benkyo wrote:
gemixin wrote:
I was only playing Ruthless Coercion during interaction in a City/Village etc until now, but just thought...is there anything stopping me using it during my movement to just ready units? If needed could I combine with other Influence cards to generate more to ready more units?

It has the healing symbol, so not in combat. Not sure if the interaction symbol has any significance, post-lost legion.

EDIT: On reflection, it is weird that Ruthless Coercion is the only(?) influence card that can't be used to "coerce" Thugs to take damage, or Heroes to participate in an assault, or with Diplomacy. Note how Peaceful Moment gets around this by requiring an Action to benefit from Healing, but does not have the Healing symbol itself. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is another unanticipated result of Krang's design that wasn't really thought through. If someone playing with me wanted to say that only the "ready units" effect counted as "healing" (not usable in combat), and the minor effect didn't, I'd be OK with that.

I would think that healing symbol applies only to the readying of a unit, which is consistently not allowed during combat. There are several cards that have mutliple symbols when there are mutliple uses, but I wouldn't make the healing symbol stop from using the card for influence during combat.

In fact, most of the time, I don't even look at the symbol. It's very logical when each card can be played or is explicitely stated on the card.
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Ben Kyo
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aliallison wrote:
I would think that healing symbol applies only to the readying of a unit, which is consistently not allowed during combat. There are several cards that have mutliple symbols when there are mutliple uses, but I wouldn't make the healing symbol stop from using the card for influence during combat.

Are there any examples of deed cards with the healing effect symbol that are usable in combat? Refreshing Walk is one, but it explicitly calls out a change in effect when used in combat.

The symbols were massively devalued in Lost Legion, that's true. I had a flip through some more cards, and there are examples of [special][crossed swords] and [influence][crossed swords] which seem to roughly correspond to unpowered/powered effects. Crucially though, the [crossed swords] doesn't (shouldn't?) prevent powered Diplomacy from being played outside of combat.

So yeah, it looks like it's up to the player to guess which effects are associated with which symbol. I suppose I'm on board now with using the powered 6 influence in combat, but not the ready units effect. It's similar to the way you could use the powered 4 influence of Diplomacy outside of combat, without being prevented from doing so by the influence -> block [crossed swords] effect.

"Ready a unit" = "healing effect" is not spelled out in the rules anywhere, as far as I know, which is the root of my gripe.

Power of Crystals, there's another one. Is card draw (see Tranquility) also associated with healing? Can it be used for move in combat? Crystal gain? We're left guessing, as best I can tell.
 
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Mark Bauer
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yeah... those timing symbols were a nuisance since the beginning.
The rulebook at least claims (or at least implies) that "healing effects" are indicated by the hand symbol. This is easy for units, where different symbols are assigned to different effects. However, on the deed cards we are indeed left guessing.

Tranquility for instance has only the hand symbol. And the effects are only "heal" and "draw a card". So I think we can deduct that healing and drawing cards are "healing effects".

It gets really tricky though with cards with multiple symbols. My assumption (at least I see nothing in the rulebook contradicting this) is that "effects" have certain timing restrictions. And the symbols on the cards do not indicate when you can play this card but when you can use the indicated effects. So a card like Ruthless Coersion that has an Influence and a Healing symbol means that it provides influence effects and healing effects (specifically mentioned in the rulebook).
According to the LL rules, you can use influence effects during combat but not healing effects. So you can play RC during combat for the influence effect but not for the healing effect.

Now with the symbols only indicating that there are different effects provided by the card still gives us no definition of to what they are referring.
But I think we already have a pretty good interpretation of the intended categories. I think everyone will agree that generating influence points is an influence effect and readying units is a healing effect.

So my take on it: You can play RC during combat to generate influence points and spend them for your thugs or heroes but you cannot use them for readying those units or recruiting new units (the one is a healing effect, not usable during combat, and the other is only allowed during an interaction action)

Edit: Oh yes, and for your Power of Crystals example. Again, annoyingly vague... Crystalize has the special effect symbol. So I think we can agree that gaining crystals is a special effect, allowed anytime. The symbols on PoC (movement and healing) apply to the gaining movement points effect and gaining healing points/drawing cards effect.
Movement can be used in combat, healing and drawing cards not. Gaining crystals can be used anytime. Why doesn't it have the special symbol? Who knows... probably it made it too confusing (if that is even possible)? Or its redundant, since movement can already be played anywhere according to the LL rules?
 
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Gemma McLean
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Is it ok to use Ruthless Coercion straight after combat, to ready units spent during said combat?
 
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Mark Bauer
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gemixin wrote:
Is it ok to use Ruthless Coercion straight after combat, to ready units spent during said combat?

yes. healing effects can be played after combat before you end your turn thumbsup
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Gemma McLean
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I am confused about the reputation bonus with this. I was on the 0 (the centre starting space) on the reputation track. I attacked a Draconum for my turn and won. As soon as it was defeated I apply my fame and +2 influence? This takes me to a +1 reputation on the track.

Then I play Ruthless Coercion to ready some units. This gives reputation -1. Do I get the +1 when I play it (giving me influence 7) and then apply the -1 after?
 
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Ali Cali
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gemixin wrote:
I am confused about the reputation bonus with this. I was on the 0 (the centre starting space) on the reputation track. I attacked a Draconum for my turn and won. As soon as it was defeated I apply my fame and +2 influence? This takes me to a +1 reputation on the track.

Then I play Ruthless Coercion to ready some units. This gives reputation -1. Do I get the +1 when I play it (giving me influence 7) and then apply the -1 after?

The reputation bonus only happens when interacting in a site, such as a village, monastery, keep, mage tower, etc. Think of the reputation as applying when you interact with the locals. Otherwise, the reputation bonus is ignored.

This can be a good thing when using a card like Learning, where influence can get you an advanced action, and you have negative reputation. Play that card outside of interaction so the negative reputation does not affect you.
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Gemma McLean
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Ahh I see. So the reputation bonus is ignored in all forms outside of interaction? I.e if I play Ruthless Coercion outside of interaction and I had +3 reputation on the track, I just get the influence 6 and ignore my bonus, but likewise, I don't have to take one off afterwards either for the -1 rep text?

So to summarise reputation:

* Ignore totally outside of interaction, including bonuses and adding/subtracting effects
* Apply immediately after you defeat a Rampaging or Draconum enemy
* When interacting, check your rep on the track and apply/deduct accordingly. Then any effects that give you plus or minus reputation during this interaction (e.g Threaten), you apply at the end of interaction.
 
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Mark Bauer
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not quite.

you do everything the card tells you to. If the card tells you to decrement your reputation (-1 reputation) then you do that. Regardless of when or where you play the card.

The rule is very simple:
If you choose "Interaction" as your action for the turn, at the start of the interaction you take your current reputation as a modifier to your influence value.

Thats it.

Reputation is still modified by a lot of things you do: burning down monasteries, defeating rampaging enemies, playing cards like Ruthless Coercion or Threaten. Most of that happens outside of "Interaction".
All of this inside or outside of interaction will modify your reputation level immediately. However, you only take your reputation value into account (and modify your influence value according to it) when you actually interact.

Edit: Also in that regard, effects that modify your reputation during interaction have no effect on your current modifier (since you only considered your current reputation at the beginning of the interaction). So if you start with +1 to your influence into the interaction, then you play Threaten, which gives you -1 to your reputation, you do immediately change your reputation level, but you don't take the +1 from before away again.

(Edited this 4 times now to get the meaning properly across. I hope I succeeded )
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Gemma McLean
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Ok that makes sense.

I suppose timing in the 'outside of interaction' scenario isn't important then because if I apply the -1 for Ruthless Coercion immediately, or at the end of the card effects, it makes no difference as I'm not using the reputation.

Also, in a way, during interaction, applying the -1 from Threaten at the end of interaction is the same as applying it immediately and ignoring it?


 
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Mark Bauer
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gemixin wrote:

Also, in a way, during interaction, applying the -1 from Threaten at the end of interaction is the same as applying it immediately and ignoring it?

yes, until your next interaction
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Gemma McLean
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Thank you.

Last question: Can I still use Ruthless Coercion during interaction? So I'm at a Mage Tower and want to recruit a unit and also ready my existing level 2 unit. Can I choose interaction for the turn action and play Ruthless Coercion with red mana for Influence 6 (gaining my +1 reputation from the track as its interaction), and play other influence cards to total 12 influence. Can I then spend 8 recruiting Ice Golems and 4 readying my level 2 unit?
 
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Mark Bauer
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yes, perfectly legal.

don't forget to adjust your rep due to Ruthless Coercion. No impact on your interaction right now, but important for future interactions.
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Bill K
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Benkyo wrote:
The symbols were massively devalued in Lost Legion, that's true.
I agree, and this can be confusing if you don't realize it when moving to Lost Legion. The new rules say the Special, Move, and Influence icons are pretty much the same (p. 9). And the only restriction on the Hand icon is that it can't be played during Combat. (Of course the "A" icon is different, but the effect text I think always calls this out.) And combat icon cards are pretty useless outside of combat. So about the only symbol we really have to pay attention to anymore is the Hand symbol.

Benkyo wrote:
So yeah, it looks like it's up to the player to guess which effects are associated with which symbol.
Sadly, I agree. Readying Units and Heal points are arguably "Hand" effects. But the other effects that can appear on Hand cards--recruiting units, drawing cards, gaining crystals--these are murkier.

Benkyo wrote:
I suppose I'm on board now with using the powered 6 influence <of Ruthless Coercion> in combat, but not the ready units effect. It's similar to the way you could use the powered 4 influence of Diplomacy outside of combat, without being prevented from doing so by the influence -> block [crossed swords] effect.
I come to this conclusion from a different route: I argue that Ruthless Coercion is an upgraded version of Threaten, which can itself be played during Combat.

Benkyo wrote:
Power of Crystals, there's another one. Is card draw (see Tranquility) also associated with healing? Can it be used for move in combat? Crystal gain? We're left guessing, as best I can tell.
Yes, we are left guessing. But I don't agree with the argument that "since Diplomacy (Influence icon plus Crossed Sword icon) allows playing Diplomacy's non-combat effect outside of Combat means that Power of Crystals (Foot icon plus Hand icon) allows us to play it's non-Healing effects during Combat".* Rather, I point to Refreshing Walk which permits this latter (that is, using the subset of its Foot effects during Combat), but it does so explicitly in its text. I argue that Power of Crystals, lacking such explicit text, doesn't fit the mold and so, IMO, shouldn't be allowed during Combat at all.

An interesting discussion. Thank you for raising it.

-------------------

*-An analogy: an army medic being allowed to practice medicine during peace has no bearing on whether a civilian teacher is allowed to teach during war.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Smash62bill wrote:
I argue that Power of Crystals, lacking such explicit text, doesn't fit the mold and so, IMO, shouldn't be allowed during Combat at all.

So, why treat Power of Crystals differently to Druidic Staff, or One with the Land? Neither has explicit text allowing their special/combat effects to be used in combat. (Neither does Ruthless Coercion, for that matter.)

FWIW, my current theory is that everything except using Power of Crystals to generate Move shouldn't be allowed in combat.
 
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Bill K
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Benkyo wrote:
Smash62bill wrote:
I argue that Power of Crystals, lacking such explicit text, doesn't fit the mold and so, IMO, shouldn't be allowed during Combat at all.
So, why treat Power of Crystals differently to Druidic Staff, or One with the Land? Neither has explicit text allowing their special/combat effects to be used in combat. (Neither does Ruthless Coercion, for that matter.)
I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure of the argument you are making. (And it's unfortunate that we're left to make these kind of judgments on the basis of tenuous arguments either way.)

I play that Druidic Staff cannot be used during combat. (It has a Foot icon, a Hand icon, and a Special icon.) Do you play that you can get two crystals with it during combat?

And as for One with the Land (which has a Foot, Hand, and Combat icon), it explicitly has a combat symbol on the card, so it obviously can be used in combat: for block points and (presumably) move points. [It has three symbols and three effects, each effect clearly mapping onto a different symbol. And since movement points can (in general) be played during combat, I'd allow that.]

But Power of Crystals doesn't have a combat symbol...

BTW: with regard to Ruthless Coercion, its two symbols clearly map onto its two effects--Influence and Healing (recruiting) (like with One with the Land). It's not a perfectly defensible interpretation, but it's the best I got.

Quote:
FWIW, my current theory is that everything except using Power of Crystals to generate Move shouldn't be allowed in combat.
That would be my interpretation as well, if I felt it could be played during combat.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Smash62bill wrote:

I play that Druidic Staff cannot be used during combat. (It has a Foot icon, a Hand icon, and a Special icon.) Do you play that you can get two crystals with it during combat?

Yes. Why don't you? The special effect icon clearly maps to the crystal generation by a process of elimination, and special effects explicitly can be used during combat.
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Benkyo wrote:
Smash62bill wrote:
I play that Druidic Staff cannot be used during combat. (It has a Foot icon, a Hand icon, and a Special icon.) Do you play that you can get two crystals with it during combat?
Yes. Why don't you? The special effect icon clearly maps to the crystal generation by a process of elimination, and special effects explicitly can be used during combat.
Because of the Hand symbol, and I guess because I'm not sure if the effects on this card have a direct one-to-one mapping of effect to icon. (I suppose that in my mind, I have a notion that an effect could possibly be categorized as a dual-icon effect, say both Healing and Special.)

(Note that with Power of Crystals, the "gain a crystal" effect must be a Hand-icon effect--I can't imagine it to be a Foot-icon effect. So arguing that the "gain a crystal" effect on Druidic Staff is not a Hand-icon effect seems self-conflicting. And round-and-round the argument spins!)
 
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Ben Kyo
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Smash62bill wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Smash62bill wrote:
I play that Druidic Staff cannot be used during combat. (It has a Foot icon, a Hand icon, and a Special icon.) Do you play that you can get two crystals with it during combat?
Yes. Why don't you? The special effect icon clearly maps to the crystal generation by a process of elimination, and special effects explicitly can be used during combat.
Because of the Hand symbol, and I guess because I'm not sure if the effects on this card have a direct one-to-one mapping of effect to icon. (I suppose that in my mind, I have a notion that an effect could possibly be categorized as a dual-icon effect, say both Healing and Special.)

That line of thinking really muddies the waters. You allow cards with more than one icon, one of which is the [heal effect] icon, in combat sometimes, but not others, depending on what? The dual-icon for a single effect idea seems to add nothing to the discussion and I can't find any basis for it.

I came to the conclusion that on Power of Crystals, gaining crystals is linked to the [heal effect] icon, but only because the [move effect] icon seems less likely. Most gain crystal effects are clearly linked to the [special effect] icon (Rejuvenate being an exception that comes to mind). I think the most likely explanation is that the [special effect] icon was inadvertently omitted from Power of Crystals, and I reluctantly link the gain a crystal effect to the [heal effect] icon on this card specifically, only because I prefer to work with what we have, rather than what was probably intended.
 
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Smash62bill wrote:
arguing that the "gain a crystal" effect on Druidic Staff is not a Hand-icon effect seems self-conflicting.

Only if you accept the premise that some single effects are two types of effect all by themselves, which I'm rejecting.
 
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Benkyo wrote:
That line of thinking really muddies the waters. You allow cards with more than one icon, one of which is the [heal effect] icon, in combat sometimes, but not others, depending on what? The dual-icon for a single effect idea seems to add nothing to the discussion and I can't find any basis for it.
If a card has a Hand icon on it, I don't allow it in Combat unless there is a clear indication that it can be used in Combat. That clear indication comes from:
(1) The presence of a Combat icon on the card.
(2) Failing that, if there is a clear and definitive mapping of every effect onto an icon, such as when there are N effects and N icons, each distinct effect clearly corresponding to an associated icon. (Also, if there is a basic effect and a strong effect, both effects should have a distinct effect for each icon.) [This, BTW, is a new idea for me (at least I think it is, unless I'm overlooking something), an idea birthed by this thread.]
(3) Some other clear argument. (E.g., Ruthless Coercion being an upgraded version of Threaten.)
Failing that, I don't allow its use in Combat.

Unless I'm missing a card or skill, I believe this issue only affects four effects, which we've discussed in this thread:
Ruthless Coercion
Druidic Staff
Banner of Fortitude
(but the text explains this)
Power of Crystals
 
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Ben Kyo
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I'm sorry, but that list just looks like an ad hoc justification to me, an unnecessarily long and specific list.

I think we'll have to just agree to disagree.

Argh, I can't stop myself: There is no indication in the rules that the [combat effect] icon serves the purpose you have assigned to it. Unless I'm mistaken, [1] only applies to One with the Land, so it's a condition for one card. Your definition of clear and definitive mapping seems arbitrarily specific, and again [2] seems to be only relevant to One with the Land, which is already covered by [1], so it's just designed to exclude Druidic Staff? Your example of "some other clear argument" also seems arbitrary to me, and [3] might as well be "the Ruthless Coercion exception".

There, I'm done.

I'm guessing you don't allow Explosive Bolt or Chilling Stare outside of combat? Having just flipped through the cards, I actually think I'm going to have to go with "the new cards are missing icons" as my new working theory.
 
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