Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Dragon Breath vs Knight's defend rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Pablo Mermet
Argentina
Córdoba
Cordoba
flag msg tools
Hi everyone, I can't seem to find an answer for this concern on the forum.

If a Knight uses DEFEND to become the target of the dragon's attack, can he be affected by dragon breath?
See the chart below for further clarification.

DDDxKxH
DDDTxxx

D= Dragon
K= Knight
T= Target space/Hero
H= Other heroe
x= empty space

Option 1) a single attack can not hit an space twice.
(Knight gets hit twice).
Based on the skill description, the target space remains the same so the OL should be able to draw a line through the Knight's actual position.
If this is the answer, how are defend dice managed?

Option 2) a single attack can not hit a Hero twice.
I read in several posts a character can not be affected twice on a single attack (couldn't find the rule about it).
This means the OL can not draw the line to the Knight but could potentially draw a line back to the target space therefore hitting the target hero anyways (Defend replaces the target, not the effects)

Option 3) a single attack can not hit a hero nor space twice.
IMO this would make DEFEND a really OP skill.

A related (and probably) simpler question: what happens with Blast?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Watford
England
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Taken straight from the sacred texts: https://descent-community.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/CRR...

When the Knight uses Defend against an attack that targets multiple adjacent heroes, he may choose one targeted figure and declare himself as a new target.

If the Knight uses Defend and was targeted himself as part of a multitarget attack, the attacks affects him twice and he rolls his defense dice once each instance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jukka-Pekka Tuominen
Finland
flag msg tools
mbmb
DaedalDurst wrote:
Taken straight from the sacred texts: https://descent-community.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/CRR...

When the Knight uses Defend against an attack that targets multiple adjacent heroes, he may choose one targeted figure and declare himself as a new target.

If the Knight uses Defend and was targeted himself as part of a multitarget attack, the attacks affects him twice and he rolls his defense dice once each instance.


This seems to be the logical ruling.
Also I believe that if a Ironbound uses Protect while is also himself affected to the original attack he will get attacked twice. It's basically the same rule.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian Leite
msg tools
mbmb
Imma argue devils advocate. The knight is the target for all intents and purposes. The breath is traced from his space cause he is the target and cannot be affected again. It could go either way though I guess.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul
United States
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For a multi-target attack, the knight can be hit twice if he redirects an additional target to himself while already being a target. However, fire breath is NOT a multi-target attack. There is one target (original space) and all other spaces are affected only. The fire from fire breath, even if traced over the target space, will only affect it once.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Watford
England
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Going off the CRRG again (Page 37):

In general, during an attack affecting multiple figures, no figure may be affected more than once. The only exception of this rule occurs when a figure redirects such an attack to himself, while also being affected by the same attack. In those rare cases, the figure must defend against the attack roll for each instance of being affected. Abilities leading to such a situation are Defend and Protect.

Not included in the CRRG is Serena's Hero Ability, which I imagine falls under the same rules as the above two abilities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian Leite
msg tools
mbmb
DaedalDurst wrote:
Going off the CRRG again (Page 37):

In general, during an attack affecting multiple figures, no figure may be affected more than once. The only exception of this rule occurs when a figure redirects such an attack to himself, while also being affected by the same attack. In those rare cases, the figure must defend against the attack roll for each instance of being affected. Abilities leading to such a situation are Defend and Protect.



Doesn't apply here though. That's say, if you Defended an adjacent hero and a Merriod was using Flail on you and the the other hero.

Once the Knight uses Defend to become the target of the dragon attack, it's as if the Dragon was adjacent to the Knight and originally attacking the Knight. Think of it in computer code terms:

t = Target. Knight uses defend and becomes Target "t" as per its text.

The Fire breath, as per its text, you trace starting from the t [The Knight) space. Saying the Knight can be affected twice by fire breath in this scenario is the same as saying you can always use it twice. The knight is the Target. It's not flavorful but that's being the most compliant with the rules.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Watford
England
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
jubez187 wrote:
DaedalDurst wrote:
Going off the CRRG again (Page 37):

In general, during an attack affecting multiple figures, no figure may be affected more than once. The only exception of this rule occurs when a figure redirects such an attack to himself, while also being affected by the same attack. In those rare cases, the figure must defend against the attack roll for each instance of being affected. Abilities leading to such a situation are Defend and Protect.



Doesn't apply here though. That's say, if you Defended an adjacent hero and a Merriod was using Flail on you and the the other hero.

Once the Knight uses Defend to become the target of the dragon attack, it's as if the Dragon was adjacent to the Knight and originally attacking the Knight. Think of it in computer code terms:

t = Target. Knight uses defend and becomes Target "t" as per its text.

The Fire breath, as per its text, you trace starting from the t [The Knight) space. Saying the Knight can be affected twice by fire breath in this scenario is the same as saying you can always use it twice. The knight is the Target. It's not flavorful but that's being the most compliant with the rules.


I can't even visualise this, it doesn't make sense; on paper I get it, but contextually it's weird...

If the knight was diagonally adjacent to the hero in question and initially out of the dragon using fire breath's way, are you saying that the fire breath would somehow now be able to jump one space and could in theory reach further away from the dragon than when attacking a target in front of them?

This game hurts me sometimes...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian Leite
msg tools
mbmb
DaedalDurst wrote:

I can't even visualise this, it doesn't make sense; on paper I get it, but contextually it's weird...

If the knight was diagonally adjacent to the hero in question and initially out of the dragon using fire breath's way, are you saying that the fire breath would somehow now be able to jump one space and could in theory reach further away from the dragon than when attacking a target in front of them?

This game hurts me sometimes...


Games are a list of mechanics. Stories are stories. This is a game and holds 0 responsibility in making sure things make sense. The map itself, is to be taken as a general synopsis of what is happening and not to be flavorful or literal. Bishops can kill Knights and chess, but I don't think that means it happened very often in real life. Play the games as the cards state and the mechanics allow, don't worry about flavor.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pablo Mermet
Argentina
Córdoba
Cordoba
flag msg tools
jubez187 wrote:
DaedalDurst wrote:
Going off the CRRG again (Page 37):

In general, during an attack affecting multiple figures, no figure may be affected more than once. The only exception of this rule occurs when a figure redirects such an attack to himself, while also being affected by the same attack. In those rare cases, the figure must defend against the attack roll for each instance of being affected. Abilities leading to such a situation are Defend and Protect.



Doesn't apply here though. That's say, if you Defended an adjacent hero and a Merriod was using Flail on you and the the other hero.

Once the Knight uses Defend to become the target of the dragon attack, it's as if the Dragon was adjacent to the Knight and originally attacking the Knight. Think of it in computer code terms:

t = Target. Knight uses defend and becomes Target "t" as per its text.

The Fire breath, as per its text, you trace starting from the t [The Knight) space. Saying the Knight can be affected twice by fire breath in this scenario is the same as saying you can always use it twice. The knight is the Target. It's not flavorful but that's being the most compliant with the rules.


First of all thank you all for your help.
I am with Daedal here, I mean... the actual scenario is clearly stated on the rules.

I think the error on your interpretation Jubez is on the highlighted section. The defend card states the target space remains to be the original one



You you trace the line from the target space, which remains the same, remember by the rules the attacks target spaces, not creatures.

Bottomline. The hero originally targeted suffers no damage. The Knight needs to roll the defense dice twice and becomes a human marshmallow.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian Leite
msg tools
mbmb
I disagree. Range and LoS being measured to the OG target's space does not mean that that is the "target space." The ending of the Defend card is there so that a knight couldnt defend someone while being out of LoS from the enemy and having the attack fizzle out. The knight is still the target for all intents and purposes. They just didn't want attacks to fizzle out do to LoS or range.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Australia
flag msg tools
mb
Devil's advocate:

Fire Breath doesn't target heroes and therefore isn't susceptible to interruption with Defend unless the knight replaces the original target. Even if the knight does so, he cannot be affected twice.

Logic:

To make a fire breath attack, a Shadow Dragon declares a target and rolls dice. If the target is adjacent to the Knight, the Knight can use Defend to declare himself the target of the attack.

Once the target is identified, the Shadow Dragon then traces a path through 4 squares in any direction. "All figures on this path are affected by the attack". Those figures are not targeted by the attack (they are "affected" by it), so the knight cannot use Defend to replace them.

Each figure on the map is either in or out of an affected square. If they are in an affected square, they are affected by the attack once. A figure cannot be affected twice because "affected" is a binary status; you either are affected or you aren't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian Leite
msg tools
mbmb
An argument that could be made is that there is a cell for "Target hero space" which, let's say for this example is Widow Tarha and our Knight is Reynhart.

Reynhart would be t (target) and Widow's space would be the THS (target hero space).

This would mean that you would trace FROM Widow's space cause she is THS but the Reynhart is still t and has already been affected by the attack and can't be affected again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.