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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bonus damage timing rss

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Rob H
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After a long break, I have returned to the game and the latest campaign is running into an issue. The issue seems to come from bonus damage, or more specifically timing.

One hero is the gunslinger. He has the +2 damage bullets which clearly state they can be used after the damage roll. This is really strong, but he has limited uses and it is his main trick. So...ok.

Then there is a saloon girl. She has a pick axe (+1 combat) and an axe (+2 damage on a combat hit once per turn). She also has knockout punch (use a grit to double the damage just rolled). This gets insane. If I understand dual wield and timing correctly she now has a pool of three dice to attack with. Whichever ones hit can then get the bonus of all hand weapons. So she can roll, look for a crit, spend a grit to double it, then add 2 more to damage from the axe. Thus she makes high defense enemies trivial. She can also (maybe) wait on rolls for damage, then double the highest one, and then add two more. This makes even epic boss monsters crumple. The "once per turn" or grit requirement don't really do their job of limiting the power since the hero (I think) has huge control on when and where to apply the bonuses.

Am I doing this right? The weapons don't have the same phrasing (after damage is rolled) as the gunslinger. Should bonus damage be applied before damage rolls? Or even to hit rolls? She is barely level 3 and rolling over even Guardians. She is a damage beast along with great healing (so tons of XP too). She even farms Dark Stone due to the +1 stone finds on the pick axe. Oh, and at a starting 3+ defense, she is fairly sturdy.

Throw in a priest that has Weaken (minus 2 to enemy defense) and it gets silly.

A party with these two (three if you consider the Priest's Weaken--but frankly it's not even needed and he heals and melees trash mobs) don't really care about enemy defense. Not even critical immune ones. Am I doing something wrong?
 
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Angelus Seniores
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That sounds about correct.
Only the damage roll is doubled, not the bonuses and you choose on which hit to apply it in this case.

Given that grit isnt always readily available, she cant do this trick every turn.
 
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Rob H
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True, grit is a limiter, but not that much. As long as she sits on one grit, she can still fire off a fairly reliable (6x2)+2 or (5x2)+2 hit. Fourteen or twelve damage from one attack of one hero sort of neuters the fear of bigger encounters. And the +2 is free on one hit every turn from a $400 gear find.

It also is having other balance issues. Fights don't last long enough for sanity damage to be relevant. Health sometimes is a concern since it comes in with bigger numbers.

Ok, I guess I am playing it right. Boy, I wasn't trying to make a god posse. And the non-gamer is in control of the saloon girl. I was not expecting danger to disappear so quickly.
 
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Jee Fu
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Do you have all the content available? If not, what are you missing?

- Jee
 
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Adria D
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chaplin717 wrote:
Throw in a priest that has Weaken (minus 2 to enemy defense) and it gets silly.

A party with these two (three if you consider the Priest's Weaken--but frankly it's not even needed and he heals and melees trash mobs) don't really care about enemy defense. Not even critical immune ones. Am I doing something wrong?
The Weaken sermon can be cast at any point in the turn. If the Saloon Girl doesn't need it, don't cast it before her turn. Wait til after her turn so those that need the help more benefit from it.


And I second Jee's question: what content do you have?

If you're only using the core set(s), then your posse should be steamrolling things by level 3-4. The game gets really easy, and it's very common for people to increase the threat level (treat the posse as 1-2 sizes larger, and/or levels higher). Expansion content makes things a fair bit harder. In particular, Endurance hinders the high damage dealers by capping the amount of damage they can do per hit.
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Rob H
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At this point I am closing on owning everything, but, a lot is not built or table ready.

My current playing content is:
Core boxes
Guardian of Targa
Custodians
Trun Hunters
Raptor
Slugs
Serpentmen
Scorpions
Hydra
Brutes
Hell Vermin
Void Sorcerers
Void Hounds
Undead Gang
Orphan
Drifter
Prospector
Outlaw

I agree the earlier stuff is pretty easy. I have added a free elite ability on core box enemies since level 2, and until I order the trait pack, I am doubling Goliath and tripling Harbinger health.

What prompted me to write this post was the epic encounter last game. It was a Guardian and 3 Custodians. On paper it looked like a hard fight. Nobody was even level 3 yet. And it was a lot of defense to deal with. Even though the Guardian can't be crited, Weaken makes every hit is (functionally) a critical (2 defense) in that case. Two Custodians were killed immediately. They then got one round of attacks. Then they died to brutal attacks from 4 heroes. It wasn't climatic. It was also Targa though, so the weather effect made grit really plentiful and everyone was max (3 on a few heroes) going in.

If there is something I should rush to my playing content, let me know. I have most mission packs and missing enemy packs on the way and I plan to order other world and card packs from FFP very soon.
 
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Jee Fu
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The Mission Pack missions are a cut above, challenge-wise. But the biggest hole I'm seeing is that lack of Otherworld content and lack of bosses. Trederra should provide a reasonable challenge for ya, as should the Burrower, Beli'al, or anything with Endurance.

But yes, +dmg is kinda overpowered. Glad to see Knockout Punch getting some use tho - most people consider it to be the worst Starting Upgrade of the bunch for a Saloon Girl. Maybe you've gotten lucky on the Grit gen? Does this Saloon Girl have Spunky yet? That's when the killing really starts.

- Jee
 
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Rob H
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Yes, I think so. I can't remember the ability, but I recall seeing "Spunky" on the character sheet. She has 3 max grit and went into the fight fully loaded so knockout plus axe at 3 combat was insane.

I have Be'lial (just not assembled). Burrower is on the way. Basically I had the Outlaw pledge, but didn't get around to the wave 2 box until recently. I am adding minecart stuff from retail and building everything in the wave 2 box. Be'lial is neglected because I don't have Succubus yet so Cinder feels under developed. Terderra or Derelict are a top pickup choice for me in the near future.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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chaplin717 wrote:
True, grit is a limiter, but not that much. As long as she sits on one grit, she can still fire off a fairly reliable (6x2)+2 or (5x2)+2 hit. Fourteen or twelve damage from one attack of one hero sort of neuters the fear of bigger encounters. And the +2 is free on one hit every turn from a $400 gear find.

It also is having other balance issues. Fights don't last long enough for sanity damage to be relevant. Health sometimes is a concern since it comes in with bigger numbers.

Ok, I guess I am playing it right. Boy, I wasn't trying to make a god posse. And the non-gamer is in control of the saloon girl. I was not expecting danger to disappear so quickly.

I'm not sure how its fairly reliable?
She must first roll a crit, 1st limiter
Then have it followed by a damage roll of 6 (though rolls of 4/5 can be nice already), 2nd limiter
And only then can she use a grit if she has it, to double the damage roll and add all bonuses for a single full-blown 14 damage hit

Still seems pretty luck-based, while at points while you roll high it seems overpowered, but the times you roll low should compensate.
 
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Rob H
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I guess that was part of the point of my thread. On paper it should be rare, but it seems the heroes have a ton of dice control in Brimstone. The ability to apply and WHEN to apply bonuses, targets, and re-rolls is pretty strong. In this case you have a Saloon Girl, with Spunky (grit generation) in the Targa Plateau (more grit generation), and thee combat. Due to down time between fights and the length of fights, she had perfect combos rather readily. In the epic fight she got 3-6 chances per turn to start or setup a combo. Even on a poor damage roll, double plus two plus Weaken is solid. This is especially so when a player has great control on when and against what to launch a combo.
 
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Jee Fu
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chaplin717 wrote:
and thee combat.
By solid Saloon Girl standards, this is actually pretty low. You are rolling To-Hit right? Like, you're not just doling out 3 automatic Hits per Attack? Cause a 4+ To-Hit should be giving you 1.5 Hits per Attack, which on average translates to ~10.75 damage WITH Knockout Punch + the Axe bonus (minus any Enemy Defense). This is a respectable amount of damage at Level 3 but it's not game breaking by any standard - especially since it requires a Grit to pull off. To get any more you would have to spend yet more Grit.

If all four Heroes have that kind of damage output, it doesn't surprise me that you took down a Guardian + 3 Custodians in 2 Turns. That's par for the course. Later content Enemies have much higher Init, which allows them to get at least 2 rounds of Attacks in so maybe that will help. The ones that still have low Init have Endurance (the Burrower) to counter balance (and/or a crapload of HP).

- Jee
 
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Rob H
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Yes, we were rolling to hit. The 4+ is theoretically, 1.5 hits a turn. But it was Targa. She had 3 grit going in. She has 1/3 chance every turn to get more from just the weather. Spunky adds even more. Fights lasted about two rounds. That allows a lot of grit to be tossed in a short window which boosts that 1.5 hits and further boosts damage since once you have the rolls done, you can then build up a pretty nasty damage roll.

She wasn't the only one. There was a gunslinger adding his bonus damage and a rancher with a +2 gun. All of them stacked with grit. But the Saloon girl was doing the big hits.

I am not saying the game is broken. I just expected more pushback from a Guardian and Custodians. It wasn't a fight. It was a mercy killing. And it mostly seemed to come from how flexible and powerful hero bonus damage and dice control is. In this game, it's not like a critical is a random boost that craters a trash mob. You get your critical (or your well re-rolled to hit roll, often both) then damage, ability, and re-roll boost the choice die on the best target. It's just weird. Other games lock in where and when damage is applied more.

I was just not sure I was doing it right as the consequences of die control were more noticable now that there is a party with lots of bonus damage (and monster defense lowering) options.
 
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Eric Backstrom
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There are no critical hits when dual-wielding.....and according to the RAW(pg 30) you can only dual-wield ranged weapons.
 
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Rob H
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As far as I understand it, "dual wielding" in Brimstone is using two one handed guns. Combat is just a pile of stats thrown together based off of whatever is in hand slots. That is, a +damage axe and a plus combat pick axe don't have individual rolls, they just tweak the heroe's Combat stat. Guns, for whatever reason, are tied to the contributing dice pool. Thus criticals and dual wielding limitations don't really hinder or apply to melee "combat" rolls.

I suspect this is done because a gun can add a lot of dice to an attack roll, but melee weapons tend to add zero or one.
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