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Subject: 6.5.3.4 Are the rules As Written Correct? rss

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I've seen discussion back and forth on this and two different player aides that I think seem to have Fred's backing with two different interpretations of the rule. At least I think I have! the rules and this forum seem to be at odds.

So:
"6.5.3.4 Conflict Suit Card Use in Attacks
When defending in or launching an Attack upon a Zone or Area
under Soviet Control or Zone or Area that will, after a successful
Attack, be under Soviet Control, the Allied player must play a
Double Agent or a Soviet Conflict card if the player has such a
card. Otherwise, any Conflict card may be played."

Is this correct?

If A Western occupied area is used to attack a formally Soviet designated area, then the cards must be Soviet?

The hitllersreichrules.doc which has Comments from Fred seem to say that if the attacking area is soviet occupied, use Soviet cards, if it's Western occupied use Western cards, regardless of what the target area is or was originally.

Can I get a decisive response? The thread about green and brown cards seemed to come to a rather confusing conclusion, but I'm not sure what it was.

Thanks,
Chris
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Tweedel Di
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Assuming you are the Allies player:

If you defend a formally Soviet area, you must use Soviet card or double agent if you have any.

If you attack an area from a Soviet area, you must use Soviet card or double agent if you have any.

If you attack an area that used to be Soviet (therefore will return to Soviet if you win), you must use Soviet card or double agent if you have any.

Same idea that you won't put an Allies control token on a Soviet area you just liberated: it returns to the Soviet.

Enjoy the game!
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Jan Horinek
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Replace with

"6.5.3.4 Conflict Suit Card Use in Attacks
When defending in or launching an Attack from a Zone or Area
under Soviet Control, the Allied player must play a
Double Agent or a Soviet Conflict card if the player has such a
card. Otherwise, any Conflict card may be played."
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Alessandro Trovato
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I continue to see 2 different interpretations...

This case:

"If you attack an area that used to be Soviet (therefore will return to Soviet if you win), you must use Soviet card or double agent if you have any."

it's not true in Jan statement, am I wrong or is it just a not-mother-tongue issue?
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Jan Horinek
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EDIT: I am afraid not. The suit is declared by the location where you are defending, or from which you are attacking.

It would be weird to re-attack a printed Soviet area under German control from a Western Allied Area using Soviet Cards. In that case you use Western cards but the conquered area will become Soviet.

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Jan Horinek
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1. Western Allies liberating a Soviet Area

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2. Soviets liberating a Western Allied Area

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3. Soviets conquering a German Area

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4. Western Allies conquering a German Area

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Jan Horinek
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I have sent these examples to the designer to confirm or correct.
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Hey Jan,
the examples are great and they are the way I've played, but I'd love to have a confirmation from the designers as to they way it was intended. It seems he has said yes to both, based on some of the comme t's on various files.
I agree that the method where you use cards based on the original designation of the target is weird and doesn't feel right.

Hopefully we will get a definite answer since the rewrite is apparently In progress.

Thanks,
Chris
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Bryan Felsher
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Curious as well. In my view, under the rules as written, example 1 would require a Soviet card. That's the way I've been playing.
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Jan Horinek
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I just hope it is not that way. I really don't want Red Army attacking from a Western Allied area. That would be just too abstract.
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Jan Horinek
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Here is Mark's answer to my question if the above examples are correct:

"looks fine to me. if the attack comes from a russian territory or defends a russian territory (home or one with a red marker) you must use the russians IF YOU HAVE ANY...otherwise, you may use a Western allied card"

So that hopefully explains it.

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Hey Jan,
Thanks for the update.So I guess we can say that the Rules As Written were incorrect. Hopefully we can bring this to the attention of the authors of a couple of the handouts/files so they can make the needed changes.
And hopefully this makes it into the rework of the rulebook that is in the works.

Chris
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Bryan Felsher
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Great. So the key is to look at the area and check if it has a default red marker. If attacking FROM said area or defending IN said area, use a Russian card if you have one. I could see where this would have been the "intention". Add to errata file?
 
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Jan Horinek
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truep wrote:
Great. So the key is to look at the area and check if it has a default red marker. If attacking FROM said area or defending IN said area, use a Russian card if you have one. I could see where this would have been the "intention". Add to errata file?


Not a default/printed red marker. Just a Soviet marker(either a red star or a red disc).
The same thing - analogically - applies for the areas with a Western Allied marker.
 
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