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Subject: How well did this game age with time? rss

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Josh Chen
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Hello all,

I am glad this game is back into circulation due to the 2018 reprint. I've put this game on my wish list and would like your opinion on this game.

How did this game fare in comparison to the newer shinier Euros that is widely available? Does this game compete with Concordia where the feeling of the game is same or different?

Thank you for your 2 cents.
 
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Brad Miller
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It is much more straightforward than Concordia. I think, objectively, Concordia is a better game, but...

More than not I'd prefer to play Navegador than Concordia, especially with less hardcore gamers.
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Eric
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porkchop_tw wrote:
Hello all,

I am glad this game is back into circulation due to the 2018 reprint. I've put this game on my wish list and would like your opinion on this game.

How did this game fare in comparison to the newer shinier Euros that is widely available? Does this game compete with Concordia where the feeling of the game is same or different?

Thank you for your 2 cents.


I think Navegador plays much differently from Concordia. Navegador has the rondel, while Concordia does not. I'd probably rank the designer's games as 1. Imperial, 2. Navegador and 3. Concordia.
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Jonathan Schindler
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I played it for the first time around a year and a half ago, and while it doesn't get a ton of table time in my variety-heavy group, we always enjoy it when we do play, and it is in my opinion the best rondel game there is. The choices here are excruciating, which I view as a plus.

Concordia, I think, is the better game (and we play it more often), but it hasn't made Navegador obsolete.
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Josh Chen
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Goatcabin wrote:
I played it for the first time around a year and a half ago, and while it doesn't get a ton of table time in my variety-heavy group, we always enjoy it when we do play, and it is in my opinion the best rondel game there is. The choices here are excruciating, which I view as a plus.

Concordia, I think, is the better game (and we play it more often), but it hasn't made Navegador obsolete.


Thank you. I also like excruciating choices in Euros. I will take this as a plus.

So would you guys say this game when learned can play under an hour for 3-players?
 
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Brad N
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porkchop_tw wrote:
So would you guys say this game when learned can play under an hour for 3-players?

I would say so, as long as your 3 players can move reasonably quickly. I feel like Gerdts' games lend themselves to quick turns around the rondel and Navegador is no exception.

It should be noted that Navegador is a game where your neighbors choices and investments should have a significant impact on your choices (if you're trying to win). To be able to gain wealth through the market, you will want to complement what your neighbors (well, left neighbor) are doing. If someone at the table misses this, then I think the game can break down a bit and potentially create a runaway leader.

I am a big fan of Mac's games and, in case you're interested, I think The Princes of Machu Picchu is his best game. It's also not easy to find and not exactly a rondel game (the board kind of functions like a rondel). I also like Navegador, Hamburgum (similarities to Navegador, but I think it's easier to play) and then Imperial and Concordia.
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Nate
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Yes, this game definitely stands the test of time. I own all of Mac Gerdt's games and like them all quite a bit. This is one of my favorites from him (along with Concordia, Imperial 2030, and Antike II).

I've never had this game last longer than 2 hours. I'd say 90 - 120 minutes is a good estimate of how long it typically takes to play with 4 - 5 players and some of them being new, which has typically been the case when it has hit the table. I've not played with 3 but think you could get it down to 60 - 75 minutes once everyone knew the game.
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Josh Chen
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Sterling_Archer wrote:
Yes, this game definitely stands the test of time. I own all of Mac Gerdt's games and like them all quite a bit. This is one of my favorites from him (along with Concordia, Imperial 2030, and Antike II).


Thank you for your input. It is good to know it has stood against the test of time.
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Adam P
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To offer a different perspective, Navedagor uses the colonial expansion and exploitation theme, which could be seen as an aging and potentially offensive theme. Additionally, it's a "brown" game, which gets pushed aside by the more colorful moderns.

I own it, I'd like to play it, but it gets bumped in favor of Concordia (more people I play with are familiar with Concordia).
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Josh Chen
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adamredwoods wrote:
To offer a different perspective, Navedagor uses the colonial expansion and exploitation theme, which could be seen as an aging and potentially offensive theme. Additionally, it's a "brown" game, which gets pushed aside by the more colorful moderns.


I am aware of the colonial theme and the implication of. The color doesn't bother me, I actually find the map and look quaint.

I already own and play Concordia with my parents and I think the game is different enough to warrant a play or owning it.

Thanks for your input.
 
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Brad Miller
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What to do to win seems way more obvious in Navegador than in Concordia.
 
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Josh Chen
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Windopaene wrote:
What to do to win seems way more obvious in Navegador than in Concordia.


Interesting. Are there enough randomness in your opinion to change this up? The Navegador card, the cost of colonies and etc.
 
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porkchop_tw wrote:


So would you guys say this game when learned can play under an hour for 3-players?


I love this game, but I don't think it plays particularly well with 3. It is good to try to do "the opposite" of the person preceding you in turn order, which is impossible for 3 players. At 4 players, this game shines!
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Brad Miller
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It's all about reacting to what your opponents do.
 
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Josh Chen
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Captain1957 wrote:
porkchop_tw wrote:


So would you guys say this game when learned can play under an hour for 3-players?


I love this game, but I don't think it plays particularly well with 3. It is good to try to do "the opposite" of the person preceding you in turn order, which is impossible for 3 players. At 4 players, this game shines!


That's a shame because I play with 3-players 95% of the time now.
 
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Josh Chen
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Windopaene wrote:
It's all about reacting to what your opponents do.


Does this game feel too much of a scripted "knife fight in a phone booth" for you?
 
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Dave Eisen
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porkchop_tw wrote:
Captain1957 wrote:
porkchop_tw wrote:


So would you guys say this game when learned can play under an hour for 3-players?


I love this game, but I don't think it plays particularly well with 3. It is good to try to do "the opposite" of the person preceding you in turn order, which is impossible for 3 players. At 4 players, this game shines!


That's a shame because I play with 3-players 95% of the time now.


And I disagree for exactly this reason. You are trying to do the opposite of the player before you. That's correct. If there are 4, it is too easy to do this and the game falls into exactly this pattern. With 3, you have players working to do this and, well, not all will succeed. That is a core strategic focus of the game: succeed at doing exactly this. It's not easy.

As far as the broader question, it has very much held up. It is one of my go to games when I have an appropriate slot for it (mid-length, mid-weight+ game for 3 or 5 people). We always go into it thinking we've played it too often already and maybe we should find something else, we're always glad that we did in fact play it as it was tense from beginning to end.

Buy it.
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David desJardins
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porkchop_tw wrote:
Does this game feel too much of a scripted "knife fight in a phone booth" for you?


I'm trying to imagine what the script for a knife fight in a phone booth would look like.
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Siddharth Venkatesh
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I used to prefer Concordia to Navegador but, having now played both at least 10 times, I now think Navegador is the deeper game than Concordia. Navegador, like Puerto Rico and many other Euro's with very carefully entangled game states, shines when everyone at the table is reasonably competent. Reacting to player positions is the core of the game, taking actions both to help yourself and appropriately blunt opponents, and this interaction lends to more depth.

I still think Concordia is excellent, but unlike most of the other posters in this thread, I think it is significantly easier to figure out what to do in Concordia than in Navegador. The forum tiles from Salsa do change things a little, but the statement holds true still. Opponent prediction is a strong part of both games, but maneuvering through the fluctuating economy in Navegador is a bigger and more interesting challenge than correctly predicting the timing of opponent card purchases or architect actions in Concordia. Both great games though.
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Josh Chen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
porkchop_tw wrote:
Does this game feel too much of a scripted "knife fight in a phone booth" for you?


I'm trying to imagine what the script for a knife fight in a phone booth would look like.


Just like a martial art movie. You strike me here so I block, then I will strike you there and you block. The winner is the one that finds an opening and go for the kill.
 
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Josh Chen
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Sounds like you guys sold me the game. I will try to nab one when I have the budget!

Thanks for the discussion.
 
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David desJardins
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porkchop_tw wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
porkchop_tw wrote:
Does this game feel too much of a scripted "knife fight in a phone booth" for you?


I'm trying to imagine what the script for a knife fight in a phone booth would look like.


Just like a martial art movie. You strike me here so I block, then I will strike you there and you block. The winner is the one that finds an opening and go for the kill.


I just have the feeling that it would be hard to follow the script precisely every time.
 
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Josh Chen
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DaviddesJ wrote:

I just have the feeling that it would be hard to follow the script precisely every time.


That's a plus in my books then. I don't want things to be too scripted. I would like some randomness in my games.
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I'm surprised to see so many people say that they consider Navegador more straight forward than Concordia. I didn't feel that at all. Concordia feels very straight forward to me, it takes just several minutes to teach the base mechanics, everything you works towards points. Navegador works that way as well, but there are many more implications and "bad choices". I don't really feel like you can waste your money or make a mistake in Concordia, just be inefficient. Goals feel very obvious to me in Concordia where Navegador, a new player can find themselves treading water a bit not sure on what to focus on. Navegador is still new to me, maybe that's why, but the strategies seemed more layered to me as what you do directly affects other players more than in Concordia. Though I think I still prefer Concordia for it's "openness".
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TyDeL wrote:
I'm surprised to see so many people say that they consider Navegador more straight forward than Concordia. I didn't feel that at all. Concordia feels very straight forward to me, it takes just several minutes to teach the base mechanics, everything you works towards points. Navegador works that way as well, but there are many more implications and "bad choices". I don't really feel like you can waste your money or make a mistake in Concordia, just be inefficient. Goals feel very obvious to me in Concordia where Navegador, a new player can find themselves treading water a bit not sure on what to focus on. Navegador is still new to me, maybe that's why, but the strategies seemed more layered to me as what you do directly affects other players more than in Concordia. Though I think I still prefer Concordia for it's "openness".


I feel concordia is more straight forward too. (Not by a huge amount, they're the same weight game.)

I've definitely play concordia way more too, though have played navagedor a fair number of times online.
 
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