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Subject: Any one else finding the stretch goals a bit... silly? rss

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Bill Buchanan
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OhSoCasual wrote:
I can't even pretend to be excited.

The likelihood of them releasing the game with all but the rover silkscreened must be close enough to zero that you'd need a microscope to tell the difference.

Plus the fact that they've been showing off silkscreen designs in the images section for a long while now.

I'd like it better if they were up front and said that they'd designed the ultimate package and that that was what they'll be releasing. No stretch goals, just perfection.

Am I am old bore?



Which is why I like the way the Terraforming Mars: Turmoil campaign is going about things. Just releasing a new "promo" each day of the campaign, and dropping the facade of "stretch goals" completely.

It's refreshing.
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Sam Lee
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plasmatorture wrote:
There's absolutely nothing exciting about them at all, but then stretch goals always feel this way. This is just the most blatant.

I think linking it to backer count instead of money is just... bizarre. Removes any incentive for us to stretch our wallets to help push the project through, which was sorta the original intent of stretch goals I thought. I guess we should make bot accounts and pledge $1 to push through to get the silk screened meeples they clearly intended to produce from the get go?

Super, super, super excited about On Mars and I happily backed it, but the stretch goals are far too transparently meaningless. I'm curious to see if there's going to be a single one worth feeling excited about.


Vital's past games are mostly of high production value, thematic gameplay, support solo mode, high replayability and have in-depth strategy. It doesn't rely heavily on cards/ miniatures which are what most kick starter projects are doing. Most of his games average rating range from 78 to 82 which is considered very good as most game designer have their hits and misses or 1 hit wonders. I can only think of a few that have such consistency such as vlaada chavatil and uwe Rosenberg.

One possible reason for the SG to be based on number of backer could be due to 2 things:
1) based on the delivery date, I assume production is mostly underway hence the need to fulfill the volume. The goal is sell as many units as possible. Adding other games such as recently published escape plan seems to be supporting this.

2) Vital's games have high rating in BGG but lesser number of votes compared to other popular games. Just look at root and wingspan. Medium difficulty and appeal to the masses. Vital's games are difficult and unique based on the theme. I highly applaud his originality and wish it to stay that way. EGG strategy may be to create higher awareness for his games here by attaching all his top hits in the add-ons.

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Mark O'Reilly
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Maybe if they had the silk screening to start with and we unlocked the tokens to match them
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BG.EXE
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Honestly - why does there need to be an exciting thing trickled out every day of the campaign? I backed On Mars because I’m excited to play On Mars. Why does there need to be some new whatever-it-is drip fed every day?

The project is exciting because THE GAME is exciting.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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Let's be honest here, sidestepping the issue that we all know Stretch Goals are a bucket of BS to begin with. . . this campaign was never about stretch goals.

Vital and Eagle partnerships move games period. High pedigree designer combined with a high quality production equals a fairly sure thing. You could almost Negative Nancy this and state this doesn't need Kickstarter and you would be right but that is an entirely different (dead) issue.

The simple fact is you can have a done and ready to ship Kickstarter or you can have the willy nilly garbage that will arrive sometime in the next couple of years full of "stretch Goals". You can't have both.

To accentuate a point stretch goals are a giant farce, they don't exist, period. A smart publisher that doesn't want to go bankrupt has already figured out way in advance how much money they need to produce to allow certain contents into a game, Eagle/Gryphon is just making it super transparent for people who still think stretch goals are a real thing.

Eagle went into this knowing full well this would garner at least 5,000 backers. They knew they could press the print button on at least 7,500 copies, and the only purpose of this Kickstarter is 2 fold, A: Kickstarter allows super small businesses to remain profitable in a future that is very anti brick and mortar and very internet order savvy, without the challenges of keeping inventory and the tax headaches they produce. B: Lets them know if they should bump that order up to 10,000.

That quite literally is the only purpose of this Kickstarter... well besides to bring us all a great game.
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Curt Carpenter
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philtrees wrote:
DC680 wrote:
But wait! There's more!

Act now and for the same low price you get not one, not two but three copies of On Mars!!

Yes, Kickstarter has a bit of an infomercial feel to it with all the "unlocked" stretch goals. But hey, that's how it is these days, without them people don't get the rush of joining a campaign full of "extras."


Group buys make the game much cheaper to purchase. Is saving me plenty on rrp and shipping... surprised you've never done it before...

But not much discount for group buys on this one. My normal group-buy group decided it's not worth it.
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition, Mercato
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I think that part of this is totally my fault. I designed the game as I idealized it, with the custom bits, the silkscreen, the boards, and all those now SGs. My deal with EGG is that we can do everything if we reach them as SGs. Otherwise, I need to downsize the bits on the game. To save time and work, I designed the rulebook like we reached all those goals. If we don't, I need to change the pictures on the rules. I'm sorry for trying a different approach here. I may take some of the excitement of the campaign, but to me, those are real SG's simple because to produce the game the way I created there is the need for more backers.
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Richard
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It's fine!

I back for the game not the SGs.
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Ryan M
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Badger352 wrote:


I wish Eagle Gryphon would have the courage to just say this is our game, yes it's pricey, but it's made by a great designer and a great artist, produced to the highest standard, that's it. And then they can even sell me the tray that holds the hexes as an addon. 2 clicks and I don't have to look at it again till October.


To be fair, they’ve been saying this endlessly for the last 10 years or more already and people still refuse to accept it. At this point they are probably just sick of repeating themselves to people who dont want to listen.

In my own opinion, these stretch goals were a given. Pictures of the game for the last month or more have all shown it with the Silkscreen meeples. So it’s a no brainer they would be stretch goals. And linking them to the marketing campaign more than pledges was a twist. But it also tells me they’ve made enough money off past projects that these items were made as the default and rather than “charge” for them they want people to hype up the game. So I think that is good.

Also, I no longer support any Kickstarter that is overly complex or adds 800 additional items into stretch goals and different packages and add one, etc. Because too often that is a sign they didn’t plan this out too well and are running the risk of taking a successful project and messing it up. Which means late delivery or problems with cost over runs. We really all need to take a big step back and recognize the best kickstarters are the ones that keep it simple. They are the lowest risk.

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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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newrev wrote:
I think that part of this is totally my fault. I designed the game as I idealized it, with the custom bits, the silkscreen, the boards, and all those now SGs. My deal with EGG is that we can do everything if we reach them as SGs. Otherwise, I need to downsize the bits on the game. To save time and work, I designed the rulebook like we reached all those goals. If we don't, I need to change the pictures on the rules. I'm sorry for trying a different approach here. I may take some of the excitement of the campaign, but to me, those are real SG's simple because to produce the game the way I created there is the need for more backers.


I wouldn't worry to much, most of us realize its a sliding economy of scale. X product is needed before Y components can be included.

I am sure I am not alone in saying I want this to be the best production it can be. I am a fan of the Shigeru Miyamoto theory, make it the best it can be.

EDIT: I just popped over to the KS as of right now 5,288 people agree with me

Keep doing what you are doing!
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Bill Buchanan
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newrev wrote:
I think that part of this is totally my fault. I designed the game as I idealized it, with the custom bits, the silkscreen, the boards, and all those now SGs. My deal with EGG is that we can do everything if we reach them as SGs. Otherwise, I need to downsize the bits on the game. To save time and work, I designed the rulebook like we reached all those goals. If we don't, I need to change the pictures on the rules. I'm sorry for trying a different approach here. I may take some of the excitement of the campaign, but to me, those are real SG's simple because to produce the game the way I created there is the need for more backers.


Gotta say, that sounds pretty sincere to me ...
 
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Sam Lee
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newrev wrote:
I think that part of this is totally my fault. I designed the game as I idealized it, with the custom bits, the silkscreen, the boards, and all those now SGs. My deal with EGG is that we can do everything if we reach them as SGs. Otherwise, I need to downsize the bits on the game. To save time and work, I designed the rulebook like we reached all those goals. If we don't, I need to change the pictures on the rules. I'm sorry for trying a different approach here. I may take some of the excitement of the campaign, but to me, those are real SG's simple because to produce the game the way I created there is the need for more backers.


I agree with your approach here. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The SG should just enhance the components quality (similar to brass Birmingham kickstarter) rather than adding new components which may complicate the deliverables. Everyone have different preference though ...
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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Really dumb dumb dumb question here and I can understand if you cant answer but hey here goes!

I always back for the extra $10 signed sticker. Not because I want the sticker but more because I hope it's a tip that goes to you. I do hope you get the bonus? If not I will probably stop going for the signed sticker.
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Danielle Goldman
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
Honestly - why does there need to be an exciting thing trickled out every day of the campaign? I backed On Mars because I’m excited to play On Mars. Why does there need to be some new whatever-it-is drip fed every day?

The project is exciting because THE GAME is exciting.


It drives up engagement for a lot of people, and incentives people to stay active, give more, and get their social network involved.

What doesn't make sense to me is the Terraforming Mars: Turmoil way of doing it, where they are just drip feeding promos that they've already completely planned. In that regards it is simply a glorified pre-order system that instead of hosting on their own site they've decided to give a % of the profits to Kickstarter.

I think that's sorta the issue with On Mars, also. I don't doubt silk screened meeples are extra expensive and I appreciate Vital's vision with them, but there's nothing to indicate that they're being limited by the amount of money being put into the campaign, only the amount of backers, which could mean people backing at $1 and not giving any more than that. Unless it really is so cheap that $300 more actually does cover the cost of silk screening a few meeples for the, what, 5-10k copies they're going to need to make?

Either way I'd appreciate the transparency of it being tied to an actual dollar amount. Even if that's not even the entire truth, it feels better to have the appearance of transparency.
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Becq
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biffta wrote:
With these stretch goals they should have started with the game in a zip-lock bag and we have to work up to a box back first and sweat it out to get the front. Those tokens without silk screaning ( or a sticker) would be ridiculous.

Now that we've smashed the stretch goal to allow us to provide each player's meeples in unique colors(!), our next stretch goal is one that I'm sure will be greatly appreciated by all of you -- a *rulebook* will be included in every core box! Not only that, but we are also revealing the stretch goal after that, which will allow us to print the rulebook ... in color!

But yeah, it would be better to group upgrades into more cohesive sets. So "custom cut meeples" then "silkscreened meeples" instead of "custom cut one of the blue colonists" then "custom cut two of the blue colonists", etc. I'd rather have a game with none of the meeples silkscreened than half of them silkscreened. I'm sure that won't happen here ... which makes splitting out the stretch goals the way they have (a trend in gaming Kickstarters) feel more ridiculous.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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plasmatorture wrote:
which could mean people backing at $1 and not giving any more than that. Unless it really is so cheap that $300 more actually does cover the cost of silk screening a few meeples for the, what, 5-10k copies they're going to need to make?


If you read the $1 backer comment though you realize that is the worst way to go though.

Quote:
Note: The cost of On Mars will be slightly higher in the pledge manager for $1 backers and will not include the KS upgrades for free. They will be available for an additional cost to $1 backers.


$1 is not going to be anything for anyone who is a Kickstarter backer.
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Bill Buchanan
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I find it interesting to see all the different perspectives on this subject.
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Michael L
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Grumsh wrote:
plasmatorture wrote:
which could mean people backing at $1 and not giving any more than that. Unless it really is so cheap that $300 more actually does cover the cost of silk screening a few meeples for the, what, 5-10k copies they're going to need to make?


If you read the $1 backer comment though you realize that is the worst way to go though.

Quote:
Note: The cost of On Mars will be slightly higher in the pledge manager for $1 backers and will not include the KS upgrades for free. They will be available for an additional cost to $1 backers.


$1 is not going to be anything for anyone who is a Kickstarter backer.


Yeah, they do this to get people to commit up front, having a kickstarter campaign full of $1 backers is pointless for most (although here since all the goals are backer #s I guess it means more).
 
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Grumsh wrote:

Quote:
Note: The cost of On Mars will be slightly higher in the pledge manager for $1 backers and will not include the KS upgrades for free. They will be available for an additional cost to $1 backers.


$1 is not going to be anything for anyone who is a Kickstarter backer.


If there was a stretch goal I really wanted that we just were a few off from I could see making a few extra accounts to throw a few extra bucks their way.

If it was tracked by money, I could just increase my pledge to help achieve the goal, that's not an option this way. But people can back for $1 without any expectation of a reward - people (used to?) do this all the time to support projects they wanted to see happen, donate a small amount to help them move forward. They count just as much towards stretch goals as someone who is actually buying the game and paying 90x as much.

Tracking it based on backers with the assumption that all backers are going to be purchasing the game is just weird. And like, it's not inconcievable someone who really wants Vinhos Deluxe might back this KS just to purchase it as that's the cheapest way to get that game currently. In that case the dollar amount will likely come in the pledge manager phase, making dollars a more accurate way to track how much money they have to pay for On Mars than just a number of backers.

Besides the stretch goals feeling inevitable, tracking it by backers instead of money really increases the feeling of artificiality behind them.
 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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Except tracking by backer allows them to truly assess what stretch goals... screw it I hate the fake term.. what component upgrades they can afford to include.

This campaign allows you to add on other games, so going by dollar actually hurts them. Going by backer tracks exactly how many copies of On Mars they are moving. Dissuading $1 backers allows them to hit print the moment the campaign closes.
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Danielle Goldman
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Grumsh wrote:
Except tracking by backer allows them to truly assess what stretch goals... screw it I hate the fake term.. what component upgrades they can afford to include.

This campaign allows you to add on other games, so going by dollar actually hurts them. Going by backer tracks exactly how many copies of On Mars they are moving. Dissuading $1 backers allows them to hit print the moment the campaign closes.


That's precisely my point, going by backer count isn't actually a count of how many people are buying On Mars, unless you don't count the $1 backers since they may or may not be wanting to purchase the game.
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
This isn’t your typical KS game where they’ve taken all the stuff you need to actually play the game out, and the base package is 4 minis and a quarter of a mission. They didn’t hide the actual game behind fake stretch goals designed to lure hungry consumers into buying. The base package is the real deal. Hence the stretch goals are a bit minor.

That said, stretch goals are always a marketing illusion.

Kickstarter rule 2 for me: buy for the base package, ignore stretch goals. They’re an illusion anyway, simply there to appease the people who need to be “excited” about a campaign at every minute.



Some people really need it to be successful though. Especially beginners in the field...
 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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plasmatorture wrote:
Grumsh wrote:
Except tracking by backer allows them to truly assess what stretch goals... screw it I hate the fake term.. what component upgrades they can afford to include.

This campaign allows you to add on other games, so going by dollar actually hurts them. Going by backer tracks exactly how many copies of On Mars they are moving. Dissuading $1 backers allows them to hit print the moment the campaign closes.


That's precisely my point, going by backer count isn't actually a count of how many people are buying On Mars, unless you don't count the $1 backers since they may or may not be wanting to purchase the game.


You cant buy the other games unless you buy On Mars. So numbers is more true than dollars.

If they went by pure dollars then a Mars Mogul would put past stretch goals more than a colonists. Hence pure numbers let them more accurately factor in component upgrades.
 
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Danielle Goldman
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Grumsh wrote:

You cant buy the other games unless you buy On Mars. So numbers is more true than dollars.


Huh? That's not true. You can donate $1 and then forget about kickstarter. Or you pledge $1 and then use the pledge manager to get Vinhos (or another game) as an add on, bringing your total to $104, $0 of which are going to On Mars. Maybe that's not many people, but it's right now the best way to purchase Vinhos, so it's also unlikely to be exactly 0 people.

There's nothing that says you have to pay for a copy of On Mars to participate in the kickstarter.
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Vital,

Thanks for all the time and effort you put into your games as well as the input and accessibility you offer to gamers. This response is an example of the sincerity and respect you have for the community.

I have been waiting excitedly for this game for a while now. I tried to back as fast as I could right after the game went live and still only managed to get in at around 700. So, I was in immediately and really look forward to the game.

I think the way the stretch goals are presented is a little awkward. I have to agree with the OP. I read your reasoning and I get that too. So I understand your position. It helps for us to see the game in as final of a design as possible. However, it also is a double edge sword in that it can appear that the stretch goals are artificial since "we are getting those things already." I had to laugh when I read one poster's comment that the next stretch goal will earn us a "rulebook in every copy!" Even worse, if the game fails to hit all the SG you need it to, backers would be put off if certain elements were removed from the game! That could backfire.

I am locked in and look forward to the game no matter what. I just see the viewpoint of the criticism. No matter, I think the campaign will go well.

Good luck and congratulations.
 
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