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Subject: Why are you backing? rss

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Jonas D.
Germany
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I am still hesitating to back this game because it is just sooo expensive.
Sure it looks gorgeous and I get why it is that pricy. The crafting is interesting and I also like the theme. But behind that glorious appearance do you guys think there really is a good, fun game for the long term? I mean for that price I could get two other awesome games at least.

So why did you back it? (or why didn't you?)
With whom and on which occasion will you play it?
What makes it so special and worth spending a small fortune?

I am looking forward to your answers. Still 14 hours left to make a decision though
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I'd love to hear some thoughts on this too. Glad you posted this thread.

I've been asking questions in here also over the past 24 hours. I'm new to adventure games other than the original Heroquest, and I would mostly be playing 2 players with my girlfriend. She hates war games, games that are too heavy on fantasy (spells, wizards, orcs, etc.), space fleet games - we tend to play more abstract/puzzly games, and we have a pretty good assortment of different gameplay styles.

For me, I love games that have attractive artwork, and nice production values (looks nice on the table), and I love games with an Oriental theme/setting. So for me, I thought this would be a good game to introduce us to an adventure-style game, without crossing into territory I know she doesn't like so much, like amassing armies of warriors or space fleets. The only fantasy element really in this game are the dragons.

It's indeed very pricey for us, and the price is enough that I'm struggling with it. I still haven't decided 100%. It's a lot of money on a game style we haven't played before. There are some Euro-style elements in it but the Euro games we've played have also been on the light side.

So I'm hoping this is a game that is approachable for gamers with some moderate experience with lighter, puzzly-style games (Azul, Sagrada, Santorini, Iquazu, Dragon's Castle, etc.) - not too heavy to scare us away, but having enough replay value that it's actually fun to play. I'm unsure about crafting weapons - I think this part is underwhelming my girlfriend, looking both daunting and unappealing.

The components are for the most part very impressive, and it certainly commands table presence. I'd love to hear what others are expecting from this game. Is it too heavy for abstract fans like us? Is it considered too light for many adventure gamers?
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Wesley van den Berg
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I've seen this game played at Zuiderspel (two players, which is how we often play games) and was pretty much convinced I wanted the game.

We really, really like the 'going in and getting out' of Clank! and we like to chuck large amounts of dice. Other selling point was the very cool item crafting, this is unique (to us). We try to keep some variation in our collection. This combined with the light exploration, which is always fun (to us)

I'll be honest, I am more on the fence for this one than my girlfriend but she's 100% sold on the game. And I'm happy to spend the extra dime to get a better play experience (as long as the components are somewhat worth the extra money) - so the Deluxe it is. The miniatures, and for me even more the wooden components, really love that... and they will get my son (aged 10 when we get the game) psyched ;-)

That is the reason I'm backing and spending the money. I will be playing this mostly with my girlfriend (2 player), my son is very likely able to play this game with us (3 player) and expect it will come on the table during some sessions with friends. As with most of my games, this one isn't just for special occasions.
 
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jusstin hewelt
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Here’s my issue: the price was set for a ton of minis and alt dragon sculpts. Now we’re kind of left with an over costed product that didn’t really fund.

The gameplay isn’t enough for $124 dollars with shipping. They did add a lot to it, but it all seems un tested and under baked, and it will probably add a lot of time to development as it was a mid Kickstarter change.

The game looks interesting, there’s lots of tacked on scenarios and modes to try that they don’t have rules for yet, but I couldn’t see this being a game I’d ask to play enough to cover its cost.
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$142 US with the mat and shipping. Yeah, that's expensive.

I wasn't aware originally they intended to offer alternate dragons and characters.

I tend to be wary of games that don't have a clear focus from the beginning. If they start fiddling with game mechanics and components half-way through the campaign, this tells me they don't have a clear goal set of how it should play, and they're hoping the production values will carry the game.

So what happened to cause them to switch mid-campaign? I wasn't following it from the beginning, so I guess I missed some mid-campaign drama? Why did they drop alternate dragons and characters?

I mean, it's at 470,000 Euros now, and climbing. Plus there are the late pledges that will roll in and those they said will cost even more. If that isn't enough to make the game they intended, then geez.
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Wesley van den Berg
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They had an initial planning up to a way too high goal mark. People complained that stuff wouldn't be unlocked. Game Brewer started polling what were the important stretch goals for people and went ahead that way.

I'm not quite sure how the scenario's / variable player powers came in. I have a feeling they were always supposed to be part of the game based on the Ninja that was added as a social stretch goal. But will never know :-)

I am inclined to give game brewer a vote of confidence based on their previous work and after talking to them at Zuiderspel... but that for every to decide for themselves ;-)
 
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Honestly I'd have no interest in the retail version of the game. I think the retail edition looks dull visually with standees and the board looking so generic. The game already has a ton of cubes, even in the deluxe, which always looks dull imo. And they seem to be very fiddly on the player boards. It's the deluxe components in this case that caught my eye originally, and thought this would be a new kind of game for us to explore. Without the deluxe production values, I wouldn't have given a second look to the game.

So I'm taking that fact into consideration. Would we enjoy it if we played the retail version? I'm not so sure.
 
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As we would be playing 2-player, one concern I have is of course how balanced is it for 2-players? I'll quote this post from the Kickstarter comments:

"The only issue I had was the number of rounds there are in coop. It's te same for 2-6 players, which makes no sense to me. With 6 you can a whole lot of gathering and crafting to take on the dragons before they chase you. With 2 you get eaten. So I think either the rules from the KS page aren't the latest ones, or they are still balancing coop gameplay rules"

Another comment:

"Wouldn't that make it way too easy with 6 players and way too hard with 2? I played a 2 player coop, and we got our asses handed to us"

So yeah, just from the sound of that, if it's the same number of rounds (20 plus 8 end I think) for 2 or 6 players, that doesn't sound very balanced. I hear coop is hard. For 2 players - which would be how we will play - it sounds like a slaughter, with just 2 characters trying to gather enough to do something useful, as opposed to 4-6 players all gathering and getting stronger to fight the dragons.
 
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Jason
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The delve into a dungeon (volcano), craft equipment, kill dragons, then get back out sounds fun. The components looks great. But, it's price at a point that makes me go back on forth on committing.

However, given what's in the retail box, this is basically a buy the deluxe or pass on it product. I don't like standees and the retail version looks so minimalist that I wouldn't bother with it.
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After watching several guides and playthroughs, those player boards with all the cubes looks very fiddly. The video hosts are constantly bumping and knocking and fiddling and fixing those cubes which seem to be very easy to knock around. Personally I hate cubes in games. They're so generic. I know many will love this aspect of the game but it's the one aspect I think my girlfriend will really dislike.

Also getting more than 1 character on a single space (like for fighting dragons together) looks very fiddly - there's really only room for 1 character each per space.

Watch the segment at 31:19 here - those cubes just go all over the place and it looks like you'd be constantly adjusting them, especially since they need to stay in place to indicate your weapons and helmet status. At 38:35 he puts two Samurais together on the same tile to battle the dragon. The minis would have the same issue.

Interestingly, in this video, he also talks about the imbalance issue with the co-op at different player counts. I've mentioned this concern previously, but I think for 2 players this game would be all but unplayable, as the difficulty would be extreme. Only a set amount of rounds to explore, gather, craft, battle giant dragons, and escape the lava. That giant dragon would eat 2 players alive. Whereas 5 or 6 could combine forces and even trade/share resources to prepare to tackle the dragons. The video says the publisher is aware of these balancing issues at smaller player counts and are working on it, but I have my doubts how well this will play at 2 players even after it's tweaked.

The more I consider it in these final hours, the more I lean to just passing on this one. A beautiful game but I think it has some gameplay issues for smaller player counts. It's asking a lot to hand over $140 for a game that currently has balancing issues at the very player count I will be playing at, and hope that they will fix it later, without having any idea how they will fix it.



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Zanza Zanzara
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i play mainly solo / co-op so i am concerned about replayability.
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Jonas D.
Germany
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Yeah I get what you're saying. It just seems like it is more appearance than substance. For that amount of money I need a little more certainty. Well, I guess that's what KS is about though.
God I wish I had the liquidity to not care...
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TrieTraTrulala wrote:
Yeah I get what you're saying. It just seems like it is more appearance than substance. For that amount of money I need a little more certainty. Well, I guess that's what KS is about though.
God I wish I had the liquidity to not care...


Yeah, the more expensive these games are pushed, the harder it is for me to take a gamble backing them. I'll take a chance with a $40 game. Even $65. But when a game hits $100+, that's a lot more risky. Plus we won't even see it for another year.

Sure I love nice components, but sometimes they aren't even necessary. The deluxe board is a must - the retail board is lame. And standees are always lame so the dragon and character sculptures are a must. But a giant pile of acrylic lava tiles? Other then bumping up the price of the game due to manufacturing (yes, this has all been factored in when they came up with the price), why do we need these when they won't even match the main tiles?

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I I
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I mean, price is a very arbitrary thing! If you were earning 10 times more money than you do now, the price of the game would not feel "soooo expensive" For me, with all the stretch goals unlocked, it does feel complete and super deluxe and worth the money!

TrieTraTrulala wrote:
I am still hesitating to back this game because it is just sooo expensive.
Sure it looks gorgeous and I get why it is that pricy. The crafting is interesting and I also like the theme. But behind that glorious appearance do you guys think there really is a good, fun game for the long term? I mean for that price I could get two other awesome games at least.

So why did you back it? (or why didn't you?)
With whom and on which occasion will you play it?
What makes it so special and worth spending a small fortune?

I am looking forward to your answers. Still 14 hours left to make a decision though
 
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I'm pretty sure $142 is considered expensive for a board game to the vast majority of people in the US. Even the vast majority of people in here, who are into the hobby.
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Rudy Seuntjens
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This is a very interesting discussion. Let me clarify a few things though.

It's true that we showed an ultimate stretch goal of 600k at the beginning of the campaign. At first, we didn't want to show this, but some people convinced us to try it. But it turned out to be a beginner's mistake. This is actually the first time that we add miniatures to a game, so I guess we should be allowed one mistake as beginners in this area :).

To produce molds for 4 different types of dragons, costs 17000 USD. Molds for 13 different dragon types would cost 55000 USD. Unfortunately, we would need 6000 backers to be able to afford this. We realize this is an expensive game, but our profit margin is only about 10% to 15% per game (depending on the backer's location). The game could be produced cheaper, but we prefer working with a manufacturer that can deliver the high quality standard that we demand and that our backers will expect from us.

With all the unlocked stretch goals, this game is definitely complete. Backers aren't missing out on anything.

We spend 2 years developing and testing this game. The designer tested his game many years before that, before we offered him a contract.
The result is a very solid and well balanced game. During the Kickstarter campaign we only added some variety, by adding asymmetrical player boards, adventure tokens and gameplay scenarios. But these add-ons don't change the heart of the game.

The cooperative game was only added in the final development stage. We never made a secret of it that we need more play testing to determine the exact number of rounds, especially now that we added more scenarios. But again, we have a very solid gameplay. The only thing that we need to test more, are the number of rounds in the coop mode.

I hope this clarifies some things mentioned here. We're very happy with the result of this campaign. The total raised amount is already higher than Gugong last year. So, this is a big succes for us as a young publisher. Thanks to all our backers we'll be able to produce the topnotch game that we wanted to produce!




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Ahiru
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I hesitated for quite some time and now I regret missing out on a group pledge that was going on. Still hoping to find some people who want to do a group pledge with me, but even without others I decided to I am still going back this today.

I played the game for a brief time at Zuiderspel and even though we did not get to finish it, I really liked the game so far. The reason why I am going to back it is:
1. The components are just really nice. To me it is important that a game is aesthetically pleasing, so if I don't buy it know, I never will.
2. I love Japanese culture and the theme of this board game.
3. I really enjoy exploring in boardgames, which you will be doing for quite some time during this game.
4. I like that you can play it both co-op and competitive (I don't own many co-ops yet, except for Tiny Epic Zombies and Pandemic Legacy)
5. I don't have a big impressive game like this yet
6. I think the replayability will be high enough with the different modes and character abilities.

Obviously this is not a game I am going to play with my mom, but I think since it is such an impressive game there will be enough people in my board game group who would be interested in playing it.
 
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Rudy Seuntjens wrote:
This is a very interesting discussion. Let me clarify a few things though.

It's true that we showed an ultimate stretch goal of 600k at the beginning of the campaign. At first, we didn't want to show this, but some people convinced us to try it. But it turned out to be a beginner's mistake. This is actually the first time that we add miniatures to a game, so I guess we should be allowed one mistake as beginners in this area .

To produce molds for 4 different types of dragons, costs 17000 USD. Molds for 13 different dragon types would cost 55000 USD. Unfortunately, we would need 6000 backers to be able to afford this. We realize this is an expensive game, but our profit margin is only about 10% to 15% per game (depending on the backer's location). The game could be produced cheaper, but we prefer working with a manufacturer that can deliver the high quality standard that we demand and that our backers will expect from us.

With all the unlocked stretch goals, this game is definitely complete. Backers aren't missing out on anything.

We spend 2 years developing and testing this game. The designer tested his game many years before that, before we offered him a contract.
The result is a very solid and well balanced game. During the Kickstarter campaign we only added some variety, by adding asymmetrical player boards, adventure tokens and gameplay scenarios. But these add-ons don't change the heart of the game.

The cooperative game was only added in the final development stage. We never made a secret of it that we need more play testing to determine the exact number of rounds, especially now that we added more scenarios. But again, we have a very solid gameplay. The only thing that we need to test more, are the number of rounds in the coop mode.

I hope this clarifies some things mentioned here. We're very happy with the result of this campaign. The total raised amount is already higher than Gugong last year. So, this is a big succes for us as a young publisher. Thanks to all our backers we'll be able to produce the topnotch game that we wanted to produce!




So do you truly believe that this game will play well and balanced for 2 players in co-op and/or competitive? Because that's one of my main concerns. If 2 players will consistently get crushed, then there will be no reason to play if we can't win sometimes. Of course we don't have to win every time, or there would be no challenge. In general, this game seems like it will be great for a lively table full of gamers.

For those without a game group (like me), who would only be playing it with my girlfriend, I'm not sure that this game is ideal for couples.



 
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If the late pledges offered the full deluxe with playmat at the same price as the Kickstarter, then at least I could discuss this a bit more with my girlfriend first, as she hasn't really seen any of the gameplay videos, only the Kickstarter page, but by the time I see her tonight, the pledges will be over. Maybe she'd be on-board with giving it a shot. But by the time we talk about it, we'll have missed the campaign. Late pledges are a possibility we could consider if it didn't mean another jump in price.

I've done other late pledges and the prices have remained the same as the Kickstarter pledge, which is always a nice incentive to back late as opposed to skipping it entirely.
 
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Rudy Seuntjens
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rilos wrote:
If the late pledges offered the full deluxe with playmat at the same price as the Kickstarter, then at least I could discuss this a bit more with my girlfriend first, as she hasn't really seen any of the gameplay videos, only the Kickstarter page, but by the time I see her tonight, the pledges will be over. Maybe she'd be on-board with giving it a shot. But by the time we talk about it, we'll have missed the campaign. Late pledges are a possibility we could consider if it didn't mean another jump in price.

I've done other late pledges and the prices have remained the same as the Kickstarter pledge, which is always a nice incentive to back late as opposed to skipping it entirely.


I've played it several times with 2 players and I enjoy it every time. But of course, I'm biassed.

There will be a late pledge possibility on our website www.gamebrewer.com for a limited amount of time, but for the same price.
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Rudy Seuntjens wrote:
rilos wrote:
If the late pledges offered the full deluxe with playmat at the same price as the Kickstarter, then at least I could discuss this a bit more with my girlfriend first, as she hasn't really seen any of the gameplay videos, only the Kickstarter page, but by the time I see her tonight, the pledges will be over. Maybe she'd be on-board with giving it a shot. But by the time we talk about it, we'll have missed the campaign. Late pledges are a possibility we could consider if it didn't mean another jump in price.

I've done other late pledges and the prices have remained the same as the Kickstarter pledge, which is always a nice incentive to back late as opposed to skipping it entirely.


I've played it several times with 2 players and I enjoy it every time. But of course, I'm biassed.

There will be a late pledge possibility on our website www.gamebrewer.com for a limited amount of time, but for the same price.


That's a big relief. There are 2 different deluxe pledge levels though on Kickstarter - one with the playmat and one without. Will the late pledge include the playmat option I hope? It would be a shame to not have the playmat option in the late pledge.

 
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I'll also add that the new scenarios look fantastic and appear to offer a lot of replayability across solo, co-op and competitive modes. Also remember that solo can also be played with 2 players, simply by having both players work together to decide what moves to play and decisions to make.

While I would like to help out by pledging during the campaign, this is a big purchase and I'd rather wait to get my girlfriend's opinion on how she feels about it as she would be my primary playing partner.


 
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chris desmond
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Glad I came here this morning as I have many of the same questions/concerns as others. With today being the “final day” to pledge. I like the look and overall view of the gameplay, but the cost is up there. Getting tired of spending $100 plus for a game. Deluxified or not. I may change my mind during late pledges, but there have been so many KS coming out in the last month that I have been interested in, I just need to start saying no. This will have to be one of those for now. But I do commend Rudy for coming here and providing feedback. It shows that the folks behind the games are paying attention. Anyway, good luck all.

- Chris
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Jason Brown
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I backed because it struck an ideal balance between mechanics and strategic choices. The action selection makes it easy to teach, which means it will hit the table more often. The strategic and tactical depth give it replayability and scratch the itch for more experienced gamers. Finally, the component quality really gives this some outstanding table presence. It will definitely turn heads!
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jusstin hewelt
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I don’t think showing the stretch goals early was a mistake. Without them I’d have said this product doesn’t match its price point.

You cut the neoprene mats on the dice trays, the coin to go with the gugong deluxe coin, a tray of monk minis, and alt sculpts (that I didn’t really care about but there is value there)

If I think about the price with those, I think it hits that $125 price point. When I think about it without those, I really don’t think it makes it. Which is unfortunate because the retail edition really doesn’t hit the right price point.

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