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Subject: AI clarification rss

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Nik Degtyarenko
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If party within line of sight but none of the conditions are TRUE than AI just stands there?
Mast day 2 for example, you have cave sickles on top of a hill.
1. Cave sickles will never act unless attacked or can move to be within range 4 in one move action.
2. Cave sickles will move toward party turn after turn untill they can be within range 4.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Wyrtt wrote:
If party within line of sight but none of the conditions are TRUE than AI just stands there?
Mast day 2 for example, you have cave sickles on top of a hill.
1. Cave sickles will never act unless attacked or can move to be within range 4 in one move action.
2. Cave sickles will move toward party turn after turn untill they can be within range 4.

This has been amended, see the Succubus Errata

Quote:
We’ve added a new Golden Rule to prevent our AI from being abused. The following has been added as our fourth Golden Rule:

“No Actions Available
Sometimes, a Combatant will be Attacked from a position where they cannot retaliate or won’t act as none of their AI Steps are true. In these cases, if a Combatant has been the target of an opponent’s Attack, Spell, or Ability and has no true AI Steps on their turn, add the follow to the bottom of their Card. “Otherwise: Move towards the nearest opponent. This figure may jump up to 4 spaces during this movement.”
 
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Nik Degtyarenko
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And its not clear enough for me. It only covers a case when enemy gets attacked and cant do its AI moves.
Which brings us to my 1. Will AI just stand there and do nothing unless attacked which will activate golden rule?
 
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Chris Lawson
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Wyrtt wrote:
And its not clear enough for me. It only covers a case when enemy gets attacked and cant do its AI moves.
Which brings us to my 1. Will AI just stand there and do nothing unless attacked which will activate golden rule?

Ah, I think I understand the question behind the question.

What you are asking is if a combatant will spring into action on it's own accord (even it's has not been attacked yet). A sickle is sitting there minding it's own business, it hasn't been attacked yet. It can see the party but since it hasn't been attacked, does it just go ahead and initiate combat?

The wording of the new Golden rule suggests it doesn't but it is worth getting this clarified.
 
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Bram Kok
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I would say it would just stand there and mind it's own business, until you move close enough that it can move and attack you.

Note: that it doesn't LoS for that, the condition is that it can attack you with range 4 after a move. Not having LoS before the move still makes this a valid option to activate if it can move to a location within range 4 and LoS to you.
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M V
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About the Golden rule.

Does it mean if you cannot activate any but the new errata rule you don't get an Emergency token?
 
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Nik Degtyarenko
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Thank you. Wording in rules are quite important part. After correcting many parts in the rules you are well aware how new people can come to a new conclusions reading same sentences.

From one side Rulebook kinda says "Do what I say or do nothing" but at same time it does not forbid or deny certain things.

In AI case you explained UP TO, WiTHIN and etc part about its movement but did not pinpoint if AI has to fullfil movement condition 100% or just tries to do it as best as possible.

If you just read AI topics on gloomhaven forum you would go gray after few hours. People managed to twist and turn simple AI formula into hundreds of edge cases that required hive mind calculations to decide right answer despite designer just asking them to play and not overthink stuff
 
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Clwe
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I had this exact same query myself - it would be nice to get a clarification, even if the situation rarely happens.

The way I would play it is, if you hit an enemy at range, add a surplus token (of any kind - just as a reminder) to that enemy card if it doesn't already have one. When an enemy takes it's turn and has one of these tokens, remove it and apply the fourth golden rule if none of it's conditions are true.

This adds a bit of extra maintenance, but It's the only logical way I can see to apply the fourth golden rule. The rule as it stands is unclear on when exactly it should be 'activated'.

I assume, however, that an enemy would just sit there turn after turn if not 'disturbed' (i.e. one of its AI conditions being true). Adding the fourth golden rule doesn't change the enemy turn fundamentally - it just adds an extra condition if provoked. And following this line of logic, if this extra condition is true on an enemy turn, it would prevent you form getting an emergency token at the end of the round.
 
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chang chang

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Clwe wrote:
I assume, however, that an enemy would just sit there turn after turn if not 'disturbed' (i.e. one of its AI conditions being true). Adding the fourth golden rule doesn't change the enemy turn fundamentally - it just adds an extra condition if provoked. And following this line of logic, if this extra condition is true on an enemy turn, it would prevent you form getting an emergency token at the end of the round.


and this is why i dont like this rule. we havent get there yet (where someone can attack from that far - is a range of 10; which honestly sound suprising) but i think that by it miving after being attack it only prevents the urgency token, is likely going to get kill anyway and do little or no damage. leaving it there while you smack on it and earning an urgency token is likely more costly for the party (unless the "sure end of a scenario", at which point it doesnt matter anyway).

so far i have like how to plan our movement so some of them come and we fight them.
 
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Steven Israel
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The primary reason for the new Golden Rule was another thread. Someone discovered a specific place on a map where they could attack a combatant indefinitely at Range 4 without any of that combatant's AI steps being true. This pretty much trivialized an otherwise dangerous opponent.

They tried their best to not have such positions be possible, but this rule was put in place for the corner cases where it could happen.
 
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Brooklynn Lundberg
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Wyrtt wrote:
And its not clear enough for me. It only covers a case when enemy gets attacked and cant do its AI moves.
Which brings us to my 1. Will AI just stand there and do nothing unless attacked which will activate golden rule?


If there is no true AI STEP statement then AI will do nothing.

Unless they are attacked. Then they will add an OTHERWISE condition that will happen %100 of the time.

Clwe wrote:
I had this exact same query myself - it would be nice to get a clarification, even if the situation rarely happens.

The way I would play it is, if you hit an enemy at range, add a surplus token (of any kind - just as a reminder) to that enemy card if it doesn't already have one. When an enemy takes it's turn and has one of these tokens, remove it and apply the fourth golden rule if none of it's conditions are true.

This adds a bit of extra maintenance, but It's the only logical way I can see to apply the fourth golden rule. The rule as it stands is unclear on when exactly it should be 'activated'.

I assume, however, that an enemy would just sit there turn after turn if not 'disturbed' (i.e. one of its AI conditions being true). Adding the fourth golden rule doesn't change the enemy turn fundamentally - it just adds an extra condition if provoked. And following this line of logic, if this extra condition is true on an enemy turn, it would prevent you form getting an emergency token at the end of the round.


This is correct. We'll be adding tokens in the reprint for this very reason.
 
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rich
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OGniku wrote:

This is correct. We'll be adding tokens in the reprint for this very reason.


Is there going to be an upgrade kit for people with the original version?
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chang chang

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nznova wrote:
OGniku wrote:

This is correct. We'll be adding tokens in the reprint for this very reason.


Is there going to be an upgrade kit for people with the original version?


they have stated a few times that anything that is revelant would be added for free to the returning backers pledge
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David Griffin
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This topic is hard to understand (I think) because most games require the enemies become aware somehow of the heroes in order to act. From the start, if my characters were moving into the map in such a way that none of the enemies could actually see me, one would think none of them would activate, but that isn’t the case. Even if a Cave Sickle (for example) was out of sight minding its own business, if it could move 6 such that it would be within range 4, then its AI would activate, magically being aware of my characters even though it reasonable should not.

Likewise, that AI works the other way too. If you are range 11 but in sight, then they would never activate at all according to the rules in the book even though reasonably they should actually move toward you (though one might create an enemy who is live and let live and which might not attack you unless you do something to create a threat — e.g. Borg in Star Trek).

Then for the Cave Sickles there is Hive Mind. If they truly DO have a hive mind, then if one sickle can see you, then they all can and LOS becomes meaningless unless you lose contact entirely.

These are all hard to reconcile with what most other games do.

As a wargamer, I want to creep around, engage the enemies in the smallest group possible (especially a hive mind type), maybe avoid monsters I don’t need to fight, and (at least sometimes) achieve the objective and get out before the whole hive comes down on top of me. This is impossible in the game as designed because to avoid urgency tokens you have to engage (and allow to activate and attack you) at least one monster EVERY TURN (though it might be sufficient to have a monster spawn even if it does not activate).

Disregarding the hive mind thing, one might surmise (incorrectly) that a character who is not in LOS does not count for the AI activation even if the AI could activate and attack him because he is “not there” for that cave sickle. One might also surmise (possibly true because of this new golden rule) that a cave sickle that can see you would move toward you (full move?). But then once you have been sighted, does he continue to come or does he forget you are there (like Massive Darkness)?

It’s almost the case you need to invent a new mechanic. That each enemy needs to be “activated.” Before his AI begins to operate. To activate, it has to have you in LOS or be attacked perhaps. Or maybe being within some minimum distance for the monster also causes it to activate. Perhaps having an activation token to place next to the monster would serve as an indicator. Perhaps seeing ANOTHER monster (of its type?) with an activation token is sufficient to cause it to acquire one itself.

As it is now, I’m not quite sure what the rules are for my second crawl attempt. It sounds like if the enemy AI does not activate (activations without LOS apparently being permitted), then if that monster has me in LOS or has been attacked, he then acquires a new AI line — proceed at maximum speed toward the priority target, where priority is defined by closest, tie break for closest to the front of the initiative queue.

As it is now, behavior is atypical when compared to most similar games (but then all games have their idiosyncrasies) It looks weird for a monster to ignore you and it feels weird to see one come around a corner as if it had x-ray vision. But it’s playable. I’m probably not going to use urgency tokens just because they kind of ruin my fun (especially solo) but I guess I can see their purpose in trying to address the inability of the enemy AI to actually keep the enemies moving). In effect they force the players to move the monsters and even facilitate their attacks against themselves even if the enemy AI could easily be manipulated to keep them out of the fight.
 
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Fenris Fenrir

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carbon_dragon wrote:

It’s almost the case you need to invent a new mechanic. That each enemy needs to be “activated.” Before his AI begins to operate. To activate, it has to have you in LOS or be attacked perhaps. Or maybe being within some minimum distance for the monster also causes it to activate. Perhaps having an activation token to place next to the monster would serve as an indicator.


To be fair, this is kind of what the totems already do. Lingering monster that the player knows nothing about, that “activate” when you get in line of sight.
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Justin Moll
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carbon_dragon wrote:
I’m probably not going to use urgency tokens just because they kind of ruin my fun (especially solo) but I guess I can see their purpose in trying to address the inability of the enemy AI to actually keep the enemies moving). In effect they force the players to move the monsters and even facilitate their attacks against themselves even if the enemy AI could easily be manipulated to keep them out of the fight.


There are some gear cards that you can exhaust to heal you X amount of health. If there were no urgency tokens or time limits. You could sit back and heal to full before starting the next encounter. Defeats the purpose of linking several encounters while you have a battle of attrition as you use up your consumables and flip ability cards.

Regarding a Cave sickle 11 spaces away and in LOS, why is it a stretch to think it wants you to come to it so it has better position next round to attack or leave its self exposed if it moves 6 spaces and uses up its turn. If I knew it would waste its turn moving 6 spaces closer I could save my AP for a turn so I had more attacks vs. moving closer with the possibility of not attacking it. I like that the AI is not simply move forward and attack if possible.
 
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Casey Nordell

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carbon_dragon wrote:
This topic is hard to understand (I think) because most games require the enemies become aware somehow of the heroes in order to act... One might also surmise (possibly true because of this new golden rule) that a cave sickle that can see you would move toward you (full move?). But then once you have been sighted, does he continue to come or does he forget you are there?


The golden rule only applies when a creature is attacked.

I'm not sure an entirely "new mechanic" is needed. Creatures "activate" when an AI rule is true *or* when they are attacked. And both of these things indicate that the creature has become "aware" of you.

As Brooklyn states above: "If there is no true AI STEP statement then AI will do nothing. Unless they are attacked. Then they will add an OTHERWISE condition that will happen %100 of the time."

The golden rule might not be 100% perfect thematically (for example, why is the attacked creature moving towards the "nearest" person rather than the person who attacked? perhaps the attack made the creature aware of the presence of the party and then it charged the nearest person?) but my point is that I think it's untrue to suggest that the Golden Rule implies that creatures are acting without becoming aware of the party.
 
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David Griffin
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Leo Moonstriker wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
I’m probably not going to use urgency tokens just because they kind of ruin my fun (especially solo) but I guess I can see their purpose in trying to address the inability of the enemy AI to actually keep the enemies moving). In effect they force the players to move the monsters and even facilitate their attacks against themselves even if the enemy AI could easily be manipulated to keep them out of the fight.


There are some gear cards that you can exhaust to heal you X amount of health. If there were no urgency tokens or time limits. You could sit back and heal to full before starting the next encounter. Defeats the purpose of linking several encounters while you have a battle of attrition as you use up your consumables and flip ability cards.

Regarding a Cave sickle 11 spaces away and in LOS, why is it a stretch to think it wants you to come to it so it has better position next round to attack or leave its self exposed if it moves 6 spaces and uses up its turn. If I knew it would waste its turn moving 6 spaces closer I could save my AP for a turn so I had more attacks vs. moving closer with the possibility of not attacking it. I like that the AI is not simply move forward and attack if possible.


To Fenris, agreed.

To Justin:
I guess I look at it in the context of a story or movie (if you prefer our more modern storytelling method). The heroes might very well “heal up” or at least “bandage up” between encounters. This seems perfectly plausible. Forcing them to NOT do that is merely a way to artifically make the adventure harder in an unthematic way.

It’s not a stretch to think the Cave Sickle wants to come “visit” you. In fact that is what you would think and it’s what most other games would do. The seeing around obstructing terrain is the strange thing (or NOT having the cave sickle do anything which is what the rules do now without this new golden rule). I’m not saying it’s a bad rule. But I think it’s a patch on a set of rules which might still be a bit shakey. I think the reason people have questions is that the rules are moderately complex and not completely intuitive. The new golden rule is an attempt to fix one (but not all IMHO) non-intuitive consequences of the rules.
 
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