Tim Burnett
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Some cards have you or nearby ally perform an action/attack “and scout 1”. Is the “scout 1” done after the attack (to gain a new prepared skill) or before the attack (to potentially help in the attack)?

I initially played it as before the attack, but now I believe it would be after.
 
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Matthew Gardner
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I wonder about this too. If the designer intended for the order to matter, they could have used “before” or “after” (as defined in 1.10 timing) or even replace “A and B” with “A then B”. Because none of these words are present, perhaps the abilities occur at the same time and the player can choose order (see Conflicts).
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Tim Burnett
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mgardner0 wrote:
I wonder about this too. If the designer intended for the order to matter, they could have used “before” or “after” (as defined in 1.10 timing) or even replace “A and B” with “A then B”. Because none of these words are present, perhaps the abilities occur at the same time and the player can choose order (see Conflicts).


Oooh, I had not considered it to be a choice. I’ll need to consult ruleboom again.
 
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Thomas B
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I played it as you get to choose when each effect occurs. If you think the scouting could help in the attack, you are free to do so. A lot of the cards have several abilities and none I've seen so far determines the order in which you need to do them.
 
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Tom Scutt
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Lethargus wrote:
I played it as you get to choose when each effect occurs. If you think the scouting could help in the attack, you are free to do so. A lot of the cards have several abilities and none I've seen so far determines the order in which you need to do them.


Note that “and Scout 1” is a special case though. Usually if a card lists several Keyowrd abilities you can only do one of them.

(Rules Reference pg. 6 paragraph 1.3)
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Richard A. Edwards
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The Rules Reference, page 6 under “Timing” says:

1.15 If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the party determines the order in which those abilities resolve.

1.16 If an ability uses the word “then,” a hero must resolve the effect that occurs before the word “then,” followed by the effect that occurs after the word “then.”

The timing of “and” is not defined, which then begs the question if “then” is the term used to define a specific order but otherwise the party determines order multiple possibilities, does “and” allow choice.

This should be addressed in the future FAQ.
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Lon

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I hope they also specify what “if you___” means in terms of timing.
 
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M K
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Rule 100.2 addresses this, though it is entirely not clear at first.

Step 2 of resolving a test is when you can convert Fate and there is a bullet point that states:

Abilities that a hero can resolve when they are performing a test are resolved during this step.

I feel this should be in the Frequently missed rules, or just more clearly stated in Learn to Play at least.
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Tim Burnett
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Some cards are better worded than others for this.

The original card which triggered this question is the Legolas 2 card Light-Footed. A similar card, worded somewhat differently, is Beravor 2 card Ways of Old. There are upgrade cards similar to the two above wording.

The Gimli 4 card Kinship is more of an issue.


Light-Footed: When you interact with a search or thread token, before you test, you may discard this skill to test agility and scout 1.

For Light-Footed, I think the intent is to scout before you draw cards for the test, since the initial predicate is before you test. In that case, it would be better worded to not state "test agility" but rather to change the tested skill to agility, which is not a command to actually perform the test yet.


Ways of Old: When you test, you may discard this skill to convert 1 fate to 1 success and scout 1.

For Ways of Old, it says when you test, and also mentions converting fate to successes. For this card, the intent as I read it is that the scout 1 should happen after the test is resolved fully.


Kinship: Before a nearby hero tests, you may discard this skill for that hero to reveal 2 additional cards; if they are a Dwarf you may scout 1.

Kinship refers to a nearby hero being a Dwarf, when there are no other Dwarf heroes in the game yet. Should it be interpreted as "you or a nearby hero"? If so, why is the card named Kinship, when you (Gimli) are not kin to any heroes in the game (base game)? This card has a similar timing-of-scouting question. If the hero doing the scouting is you, not the nearby hero who is making the test, then it is usually less of an issue. However, since you is Gimli, if the test is for damage reduction, Gimli scouting before/during the test and drawing a Guard card sure would help out!


This discussion might be easier using the old Magic rules for interrupt and instants perhaps. (I haven't played Magic in a long time and got started in Beta so I think some of that stuff has changed.)
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Austin Fleming
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There is a title that allows a character to have the dwarf keyword.
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Tim Burnett
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Oh! Good. But still, since that is in Gimli’s base cards, it seems Strange to have to wait for a title to get that ability. (They don’t have hero upgrade cards though, at least not yet.)
 
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Brian Tanner
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timbur wrote:
Some cards are better worded than others for this.

The original card which triggered this question is the Legolas 2 card Light-Footed. A similar card, worded somewhat differently, is Beravor 2 card Ways of Old. There are upgrade cards similar to the two above wording.

The Gimli 4 card Kinship is more of an issue.


Light-Footed: When you interact with a search or thread token, before you test, you may discard this skill to test agility and scout 1.

For Light-Footed, I think the intent is to scout before you draw cards for the test, since the initial predicate is before you test. In that case, it would be better worded to not state "test agility" but rather to change the tested skill to agility, which is not a command to actually perform the test yet.


Ways of Old: When you test, you may discard this skill to convert 1 fate to 1 success and scout 1.

For Ways of Old, it says when you test, and also mentions converting fate to successes. For this card, the intent as I read it is that the scout 1 should happen after the test is resolved fully.


Kinship: Before a nearby hero tests, you may discard this skill for that hero to reveal 2 additional cards; if they are a Dwarf you may scout 1.

Kinship refers to a nearby hero being a Dwarf, when there are no other Dwarf heroes in the game yet. Should it be interpreted as "you or a nearby hero"? If so, why is the card named Kinship, when you (Gimli) are not kin to any heroes in the game (base game)? This card has a similar timing-of-scouting question. If the hero doing the scouting is you, not the nearby hero who is making the test, then it is usually less of an issue. However, since you is Gimli, if the test is for damage reduction, Gimli scouting before/during the test and drawing a Guard card sure would help out!


This discussion might be easier using the old Magic rules for interrupt and instants perhaps. (I haven't played Magic in a long time and got started in Beta so I think some of that stuff has changed.)



I actually came to the forums looking to resolve a rules question. On Ways of Old, how do you figure that the scout happens after the test is completed?

I was playing Beravor with a prepared Ways of Old. During a might test, Ways of Old was discarded to turn a fate into a success, then a scout 1 occurred, drawing an Undying Might (when you test might, you may discard this skill to add 1 success). As part of scouting, Undying Might can be prepared. Since a might test was occurring, I then discarded Undying Might to add another success to the test. Is this a valid sequence of events?

As I read the rules, this seems to be correct. The scout is an "and" and the rules reference says when abilities occur at the same time, players choose the order... so I guess if we wanted to get technical you could choose to scout 1 before converting a fate to a success, thus allowing you to prepare a card... maybe? It doesn't really define the timing of "and", but to me that seems to imply the abilities are happening at the same time?

Anyways looking for clarity on if I played this correctly or not.
 
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Raphaël Langella
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I don't think that's correct. "and" says you can choose the order, which means you can do it either before or after. It doesn't mean that you can do it in the middle of resolving the other one. In this case, since the trigger is "when you test", there isn't any way of doing it before. Maybe it would have been clearer if they used "then" here.
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Tim Burnett
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I agree that for Ways of The Old at least, “then scout” is my preferred interetation, as my prior colorful reply attempted to state.
 
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Treiral Tasarte
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galehar wrote:
I don't think that's correct. "and" says you can choose the order, which means you can do it either before or after. It doesn't mean that you can do it in the middle of resolving the other one. In this case, since the trigger is "when you test", there isn't any way of doing it before. Maybe it would have been clearer if they used "then" here.

But in his case you are not resolving the card in the middle of the other one. You are resolving the card in step 2 of the Test.
For example, you can start the test, and at step 2 decide to discard Ways of Old to use it. Now you have to fully resolve Ways of Old. For that, since it's "and", you can choose either to scout 1 or convert fate as your first ability. Suppose you scout 1, you draw the card Undying Might and ready it in front of you. With this the scout part is done. Next you convert 1 fate to 1 success. And with that, you finished resolving Ways of Old, and you are still in Step 2 of the Test resolution.
Since you are still in Step 2 you can discard Undying Might to add another success. Once that's already resolved. We move to the next part of Step 2, spending the inspiration tokens, etc.
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