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Subject: Is Boggle a Roll-and-Write rss

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Adrian Walker
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I can see the argument either way, but I notice that although Yahtzee is mentioned as a controversial example of a roll and write game, I haven't yet heard a reviewer or otherwise ask this question.

So, what better to do than put it to vote? Note that this question implies nothing about how you find the game (feel free to comment on that, not like I could stop you anyway), just whether or not it fills this description

Poll
Is Boggle (R) a Roll-and Write game (in addition to the other categories it does fall into, such as word game)?
Yes
No
      134 answers
Poll created by intellismartness


Adrian (before "This belongs in the Boggle forum" comments, yes it could, but I want the broader cross-section of answers)
 
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Jerry Schippa
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How on earth is Yahtzee a controversial roll and write?
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Adrian Walker
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dukane wrote:
How on earth is Yahtzee a controversial roll and write?


Sorry, I mean controversial in that whether or not someone considers it a roll-and-write is a debate. I probably used a poor choice of word there.
 
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Russ Williams
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intellismartness wrote:
dukane wrote:
How on earth is Yahtzee a controversial roll and write?


Sorry, I mean controversial in that whether or not someone considers it a roll-and-write is a debate. I probably used a poor choice of word there.

The question remains.

I didn't know there are people who think Yahtzee is not a roll-and-write.

The only possible "argument" I can see for that view would be that the expression "roll-and-write" became trendy recently, so if a game wasn't marketed as a "roll-and-write" then somehow it's necessarily not a roll-and-write.

Or then there are the many people who dismiss all older games as somehow ipso facto not real games.
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Florian Woo
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I always thought Yahtzee is the best example of a roll-and-write game...
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Keith R
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He already came back and said he meant yatzee is clearly a roll and write. The question is about boggle

And no I don't think boggle is a roll and write

 
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Russ Williams
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Krubby wrote:
He already came back and said he meant yatzee is clearly a roll and write.

No, he came back and clarified that he meant there is controversy whether Yahtzee is a roll-and-write...
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Jason
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You roll dice and you write words based on the dice. How can it not be a roll and write?
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Patrick Wilson
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I would be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who voted "No."
 
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Adrian Walker
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russ wrote:
Krubby wrote:
He already came back and said he meant yatzee is clearly a roll and write.

No, he came back and clarified that he meant there is controversy whether Yahtzee is a roll-and-write...


Then let me clarify things now. I firmly believe Yahtzee is a roll-and-write and do not understand how it can be controversial.

I am not sure about Boggle, mostly because of the extra wrinkle in the rolling that could make it something else.
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Keith R
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russ wrote:
Krubby wrote:
He already came back and said he meant yatzee is clearly a roll and write.

No, he came back and clarified that he meant there is controversy whether Yahtzee is a roll-and-write...


no. He came back and said boggle might be controversial, unlike Yatzee which really isn't controversial. He was using Yatzee as an example of something that isn't.

It was confusing the way it was written I think though
 
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Simon Taylor
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pfunk77 wrote:
I would be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who voted "No."


Because the 'rolling' is just game setup each round. You don't even really roll the dice, you just shake them into the 4x4 grid, which is just essentially the way of creating a randomised 4x4 grid of letters.

After that, you're just writing words. There's no additional rolling by anyone. And if the same person sets the game up each round (which is perfectly likely) then most players never roll the dice or even touch them.

It's like saying Carcassonne is a tile shuffle-and-place game because someone shuffles the tiles at the start of the game and then you all take turns placing them. Shuffling the tiles at the start of a game of Carcassonne has got about as much to do with the game as 'rolling' the dice at the start of a round of boggle.

I'd write more but I've got to go out to soccer practice (a popular game of athleticism, ball-control, and... turf maintenance).
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Ryan Keane
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pfunk77 wrote:
I would be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who voted "No."


I voted no and was surprised so many voted yes. While not mutually exclusive, I would always call it a word game first and foremost. If people want to include it under roll-and-write as well in the BGG category system, I don’t care. I use categories primarily to help describe to other players what a new-to-them game is like, and thus calling Boggle a roll-and-write is not useful at all to me.
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Derry Salewski
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I placed a worker somewhere, what do you mean it’s not worker placement?!

(I have no idea what a roll amd write game is but if it’s just yahtzee but somehow subtle l enough to not be boggle it sounds as useless as the reat of the dumb words gamers come up with to describe games.)
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James C
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I’m with Simon and Ryan.

If anyone is interested in a roll and write word game take a look at my game Hexwords.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/29755023
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Ryan Keane
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scifiantihero wrote:
I placed a worker somewhere, what do you mean it’s not worker placement?!

(I have no idea what a roll amd write game is but if it’s just yahtzee but somehow subtle enough to not be boggle it sounds as useless as the rest of the dumb words gamers come up with to describe games.)


I consider games like Qwixx and Qwinto as the standard roll-and-writes, so if it's too far from these (like Boggle), I stop using the term. Yahtzee is technically a roll-and-write, but since I have never met anyone that didn't already know Yahtzee, I've never had the need to describe Yahtzee.

The key part for me is whether the game is centered around some type of sheet, created by the game designer and a copy given to each player, that you mark up in some way based on choices you make about the results of communal die rolls made each turn. If so, I'll describe it as a roll-and-write. If the communal die rolls are replaced with some other randomization mechanic, like card flips, I'll call it a roll-and-write but with card flips.

If I'm just writing on scrap paper (i.e. Boggle), I'm not going to call it a roll-and-write. You could start arguing whether games like Martian Dice (I might write my score down) or D&D (I'm rolling dice and writing down stuff) are roll-and-writes, but that is just pointless.
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Alison Mandible
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Yeah... I think Boggle is really not a roll-and-write.

These sorts of things are about family resemblances, so it's not that a roll-and-write has to have ALL of these, but I think it has to have at least one, and usually more.

Generally speaking, in roll-and-writes...

- Each player is filling out a sheet of some kind; the shapes/lines/spaces printed on the sheet are part of the game's structure.

- In particular, there's a fixed amount of space to write things; you might be trying to fill the sheet first or you might be dreading running out of space, but the rolls still 'use up' the sheet.

- The rolling happens many times over the course of the game, and players have to make decisions without knowing how future rolls will go.

- Turning the rolls into a list of possible moves is trivial; looking at the dice and figuring out what you MIGHT write down on the sheet isn't part of the challenge.

- Players take turns rolling dice; on your turn you might get something different from other players, or you might have more control over which dice are rolled.

Like I said, you've probably already thought of exceptions to each of these. But Boggle having NONE of them makes it not a roll-and-write to me. (On the other hand, flip-a-card-and-write games like Welcome To, Let's Make A Bus Route and Cross Up seem like part of the same genre to me.)
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Paul DeStefano
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I have a version of boggle that has strips with letters on them. You roll nothing.
 
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Hmm it hadn’t crossed my mind that Boggle could be considered a roll and write. I guess it could be, I’m not sure

I consider Scrabble Dice to be a roll and write word game, though no-one has classified it as such on BGG.
That one does have multiple rolls and sheets with slots that you’re trying to fill.
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Chris Talmadge
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A shake & write for sure!
 
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John McD
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pfunk77 wrote:
I would be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who voted "No."

I voted no and was surprised by how many voted yes.

Alison gave my two main reasons:
grasa_total wrote:
Generally speaking, in roll-and-writes...

- Each player is filling out a sheet of some kind; the shapes/lines/spaces printed on the sheet are part of the game's structure.

- The rolling happens many times over the course of the game, and players have to make decisions without knowing how future rolls will go.

The first of these is more salient for me. It's also why Farkle isn't roll-and-write in my book while Yahtzee is, despite the real similarity in the two games. In Farkle (or Bupkis as I learned it), where you write your score is just not a relevant part of the game. Same with Boggle. Consequently, the writing is not a part of the decision space of the game, but rather simply a memory/honesty aid.

Before I read Alison's post, I might have accepted Boggle as a roll-and-write if maybe there were a crossword or word-search component to the writing or maybe a predetermined number of slots for each possible first letter. But after hearing her point about making decisions with future rolls unknown, I feel like even with such elements to make writing part of the game, Boggle would still be only a fringe case for inclusion.
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James C
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Obidiah wrote:
Hmm it hadn’t crossed my mind that Boggle could be considered a roll and write. I guess it could be, I’m not sure

I consider Scrabble Dice to be a roll and write word game, though no-one has classified it as such on BGG.
That one does have multiple rolls and sheets with slots that you’re trying to fill.


Cool. I have seen a bunch of the Scrabble games including dice, but never that one. I’d love to see the score pad.

Edit: found the score pad, now just need the full instructions.
 
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John McD
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Tiwsman wrote:
pfunk77 wrote:
I would be curious to hear the reasoning of the people who voted "No."

I voted no and was surprised by how many voted yes.

Alison gave my two main reasons:
grasa_total wrote:
Generally speaking, in roll-and-writes...

- Each player is filling out a sheet of some kind; the shapes/lines/spaces printed on the sheet are part of the game's structure.

- The rolling happens many times over the course of the game, and players have to make decisions without knowing how future rolls will go.

Consequently, the writing is not a part of the decision space of the game, but rather simply a memory/honesty aid.


I think this is a bit of a red herring, if humans had better memories we'd have no need of a pad for Yahtzee either, you'd know what you and everyone else had rolled. If our memories were better again there would be no need for the board in Railroad Ink, or even a board and pieces in chess.

I do vote 'no' as well, but I don't think it's about memory and honesty, I do think it's about the place in the game that the rolling has.

I've seen Boggle grids printed in Newspapers with some target score to break. You couldn't do that even if you wanted to with true roll and write games.
 
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