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Subject: Open borders rss

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Moshe Callen
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This is perhaps a tangent thread to the many discussions of illegal immigration (usually with a US focus) here in RSP.

To be blunt, I favor borders as open as possible in a manner consistent with reasonable public safety. Thus for example, a country has the right to refuse entry to those thought to be entering the country for purposes such as attacking people. Yet U do think those kinds of suspicions need to be something that can be justified to a judge via due process.

Likewise if someone is dangerous sick, then they may be quarantined but they should be treated and any quarantine but be medically justified in a manner that an independent panel of qualified doctors would accept.

This attitudes will be portrayed by many as "liberal" but in fact it is a conservative attitude. Freedom of movement is a concept accepted for any free individuals since the dawn of time. Moreover this freedom is often a matter of life and death. I cannot think of anything more fundamentally intrusive than giving gov't the power to control when, if, and how people move about. A gov't (be it in the US, my own country, or wherever) can refuse permits for permanent employment or any number of things. It can even refuse entry of civilians into certain areas but saying "You can't cross the border" is IMO too much.

I gather, my opinion is virtually unique in RSP. Why?
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Mike Stiles
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Not as unique as you might think ><
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Rich Shipley
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I'm not against the concept. The devil would be in the details.

If the government can deny permits for permanent employment, how does that work in practice?

Does public safety mean only that an individual is dangerous or can it mean that a population is undesirable?
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No way man, the southern US border is as much as an idea as it is a barrier, and we should ignore it.
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Junior McSpiffy
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rshipley wrote:
I'm not against the concept. The devil would be in the details.

If the government can deny permits for permanent employment, how does that work in practice?

Does public safety mean only that an individual is dangerous or can it mean that a population is undesirable?


I think it comes down to resources. At what point does the diversion of public resources diminish the quality of life for citizens?

I think we have enough here in the United States right now to accommodate far more than we do right now. The issue is we need to have this reflected in our laws. We have quotas which do not reflect our current standard of living or demand for labor.

Also, I like the idea that we have some sort of standard for bringing people in and what they can contribute to our society. But we need to recognize that for each nation, that's different. So for first-world countries, aiming high for doctors, scientists, etc does well for us and doesn't really cost those countries because those positions are in large supply. But for third-world countries, holding out for their doctors and their scientists is to pillage what limited resources they have to bring their nation out of poverty. We need to bring in those who can help our country without diminishing what pool of talent they have. What that usually means is we bring in labor. But we shouldn't shame that. We should recognize the value that labor brings and make room for more, particularly when it also serves the purpose of alleviating the suffering from those regions and supplying opportunities they couldn't possibly be afforded there.

The system is broken. And both sides are happy with it for their own reasons. It needs to get fixed. Actually !fixed! fixed. Sadly, there's zero chance of it being even realistically addressed for at least two years.
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Moshe Callen
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rshipley wrote:
I'm not against the concept. The devil would be in the details.

If the government can deny permits for permanent employment, how does that work in practice?

Within reason, I think this can vary a bit but the basic idea is that for example to obtain a work permit one must be a registered permanent resident with all the duties and rights of a citizen except the vote. An example from my own country is that Palestinians in Jerusalem have refused (or their parents did) to take Israeli citizenship but they are officially residents of Jerusalem. so they can vote in municipal elections but not in Israeli national elections. They can vote in Palestinian Authority national elections. I'm not meaning to bring Israeli politics into the mix but just giving an example.
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Does public safety mean only that an individual is dangerous
Yes and it has to be something to satisfy a judge but the specific laws can vary within reason. One place might demand a connection to a criminal or terrorist organization to be refused and another might demand for example a recent documented history of violence.
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or can it mean that a population is undesirable?

Absolutely not. That's just racism and bigotry.
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Eric Tama
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Fuck the Border
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A friend of mine dropped me a line, it said, “man, I gotta run to the USA. I got no money, got no job.” She skipped out of Mexico to stay alive. You’ve got a problem with her living here, but what did you do to help her before she fucking came? What did the country do? What did the people do? I stand not by my country, but by people of the whole fucking world. No fences, no borders. Free movement for all. Fuck the border. It’s about fucking time to treat people with respect. It’s our culture and consumption that makes her life unbearable. Fuck this country; its angry eyes, its knee-jerk hordes. Legal or illegal, watch her fucking go. She’ll take what’s hers. Watch her fucking go. Fuck the border.
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whac3 wrote:
This is perhaps a tangent thread to the many discussions of illegal immigration (usually with a US focus) here in RSP.

To be blunt, I favor borders as open as possible in a manner consistent with reasonable public safety. Thus for example, a country has the right to refuse entry to those thought to be entering the country for purposes such as attacking people. Yet U do think those kinds of suspicions need to be something that can be justified to a judge via due process.

Likewise if someone is dangerous sick, then they may be quarantined but they should be treated and any quarantine but be medically justified in a manner that an independent panel of qualified doctors would accept.

This attitudes will be portrayed by many as "liberal" but in fact it is a conservative attitude. Freedom of movement is a concept accepted for any free individuals since the dawn of time. Moreover this freedom is often a matter of life and death. I cannot think of anything more fundamentally intrusive than giving gov't the power to control when, if, and how people move about. A gov't (be it in the US, my own country, or wherever) can refuse permits for permanent employment or any number of things. It can even refuse entry of civilians into certain areas but saying "You can't cross the border" is IMO too much.

I gather, my opinion is virtually unique in RSP. Why?


I’m pretty close to the same opinion. With the caveat that countries have the right to know who is coming in if they are not citizens, with the right to refuse entry if someone has ties to known organizations in opposition to the country they are wishing to enter and possibly if they have a known record of criminal activity.

Once someone is in the country I’d consider them to have the right to live as though a citizen, without the right to vote and maybe certain other specialized restrictions of which I can’t think of any at the moment.

With policies such as these in place, I think it is fair to assume anyone entering illegally by sneaking in at a non-entry point should be returned to their home country and barred from re-entry for a period of time unless extraordinary circumstances exist.

Entry and eventual citizenship for those that desire it should be attainable without excessive cost.
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Paul K.
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https://smbc-comics.com/comic/open-borders

An economic argument for open borders.
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pk2317 wrote:
https://smbc-comics.com/comic/open-borders

An economic argument for open borders.


Nice. But I'll wait until the kindle version is available
 
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Jorge Montero
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I think it's a good goal, but moving there is not something that can be done in a day without terrible consequences.

There's estimates of how many people would migrate to the US if they could: A common one is close to 150 million adults. That's a lot of adults for the country to have a prayer of taking in, even in a decade: America lacks the infrastructure for anything even resembling that number.

On the other hand an ever increasing quota, allowing the country to build the muscle of needing all those extra roads, homes and schools, is pretty doable, and would be a good idea.
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Moshe Callen
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hibikir wrote:

It's a ridiculous conceit of Americans to think everyone in the world wants to become American. No, they really don't.
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Rich Shipley
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whac3 wrote:
hibikir wrote:

It's a ridiculous conceit of Americans to think everyone in the world wants to become American. No, they really don't.


His number would be 2% of everyone. I could believe that.
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Edgar the Woebringer
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I think any idea should be on the table, as mentioned the devil is in the details. We should be looking at what is *effective* in solving a given problem. Of course, that means we have to calmly and factually identify the problems before we start rolling out "solutions"--and instead we get fear-mongering and boogeyman tactics in the interest of spreading fear (which translates to votes.)
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whac3 wrote:
It's a ridiculous conceit of Americans to think everyone in the world wants to become American. No, they really don't.


150 million people is not everyone. But it's a lot of people.

And most of those people don't want to "become American." They just want to live here.

I am not convinced by the economic arguments for open borders, but I'm open to persuasion. The moral ones, however, tend to lose me because most people who say "fuck the border" mean "fuck the U.S. border." They don't mean I should be able to move to Japan or Switzerland at will.
 
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Mike Stiles
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Switzerland doesn't count, they don't pretend to be a real country.

A more open border would probably be a HUGE benefit to Japan though, what with their population problems.
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It might be, but I think the Japanese have a right to decide whether or not they want a lot of non-Japanese moving there.

(Issues with "Koreans" living in Japan for generations without being given Japanese citizenship is another matter.)
 
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Mike Stiles
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Yes. And I'm arguing that a more open border (the lines Moshe set out seem good) would be a huge benefit to the US.

The US has enough cachet that it really does draw talent and skill from around the world, and honestly we need people to fill the role of say agricultural workers as well.

A more open border isn't so much of a moral question (leaving aside asylum seekers, although that's also legitimate), it's a case of doing what's best for the country.
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rshipley wrote:
whac3 wrote:
hibikir wrote:

It's a ridiculous conceit of Americans to think everyone in the world wants to become American. No, they really don't.


His number would be 2% of everyone. I could believe that.


I wonder if we have a true number of those already living here undocumented. I work with families and know of pockets of communities that live 10-12 adults in an apartment or single-wide trailer. It is like ghost communities. Do they exist? They are here, but don't really exist. However, many of them own vehicles and drive without licenses or insurance. They work at jobs no USA-born adult would want to do, with long hours, and zero benefits. They then send the bulk of their earnings to their loved ones in their home countries. Not all of them, but enough of them that it can be concerning.

It is a quandary, and I wish there was a good solution for everyone involved.

 
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windsagio wrote:
Yes. And I'm arguing that a more open border (the lines Moshe set out seem good) would be a huge benefit to the US.

The US has enough cachet that it really does draw talent and skill from around the world, and honestly we need people to fill the role of say agricultural workers as well.

A more open border isn't so much of a moral question (leaving aside asylum seekers, although that's also legitimate), it's a case of doing what's best for the country.



Okay, but does that mean literally open borders - i.e., anyone who wants to (unless there is clear evidence of criminality, intent to commit acts of violence, etc.) can come? Or are we allowed to screen for skills, means of supporting oneself, etc.?

Most countries have some level of screening for would-be immigrants. Some are stricter than others, but hardly any nation allows anyone who wants to to move in, particularly if they are immediately going to begin collecting social service benefits.

So I'm open to arguments about the economic benefits of more immigration, but I do not see actual open borders as a good idea.
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Moshe Callen
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:
Okay, but does that mean literally open borders - i.e., anyone who wants to (unless there is clear evidence of criminality, intent to commit acts of violence, etc.) can come?

Certainly. Why not?
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Or are we allowed to screen for skills, means of supporting oneself, etc.?

I have no problems catering to people with skills and trying to attract them specifically but I do not think lack of skills should be a bar to entry. It never has been previously. Why now?
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Most countries have some level of screening for would-be immigrants. Some are stricter than others, but hardly any nation allows anyone who wants to to move in, particularly if they are immediately going to begin collecting social service benefits.

Who mentioned anything about benefits? Yes, give them medical care etc. of the sort which should be available to everyone but no more than anyone is entitled to anywhere under basic human rights.
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So I'm open to arguments about the economic benefits of more immigration, but I do not see actual open borders as a good idea.

Why not? When did "Give us your tired, your poor,…" etc become a supposedly bad thing and why?
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whac3 wrote:
Certainly. Why not?


Because many of them would be net negatives, economically and socially.

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have no problems catering to people with skills and trying to attract them specifically but I do not think lack of skills should be a bar to entry. It never has been previously. Why now?


Never has for which country? Are we only talking about the U.S. here?

We did allow large numbers of unskilled immigrant labor before. The social and economic situation today is not the same as it was in 19th and early 20th centuries. For one thing, we have a much greater social safety net. That's a good thing. There were horror stories about the living conditions of many of those earlier immigrants, and I would not like to repeat them (as illegal immigrants even today often live in pretty shitty conditions), but I doubt we could afford the same level of immigration now if we were to offer everyone the same benefits as citizens.


Quote:
Who mentioned anything about benefits? Yes, give them medical care etc. of the sort which should be available to everyone but no more than anyone is entitled to anywhere under basic human rights.


So are you saying someone who immigrates here and finds themselves destitute and homeless would not be entitled to any social services other than emergency medical care?


Quote:
Why not? When did "Give us your tired, your poor,…" etc become a supposedly bad thing and why?


I don't think it's bad thing per se, but it's an ideal, an aspiration, and a nice poem inscribed on a statue is not and never has been national policy. It's the American dream, yes, but that doesn't mean it's an eternal principle we can never deviate from, or that we were ever obligated to fulfill.

Again I ask: why is it only the U.S. that is being asked to do this?
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Because we fix our own homes first?

We can't change what Switzerland does, but we can sure change the US.

And again, it's to our advantage!

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AmadanNaBriona wrote:


Because many of them would be net negatives, economically and socially.



So what? Lots of current american citizens are net negatives, economically and socially.

People are an investment in the nation. Not every investment will pan out, but that's normal. Avoiding all investment for fear of some of them not working out is just bad business.

Rather than wasting resources trying to filter out the so-called risks using metrics that have long since been shown to be both immoral and ineffective, our time and effort is better spent facilitating the ability of immigrants to contribute.

For instance, if we no longer constantly push the threat of deportation on poor immigrants, that removes one of the ways they're extorted into working for illegally low wages that circumvent income tax.
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Moshe Callen
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"Net negatives"? Maybe we just have fundamentally different ideas about human worth. The only people I see as arguably negatives are violent criminals. Then let them be subject to the same law as anyone else.

Otherwise it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to illegal immigrants. I grew up among them. People desperate to improve their lives who risked their lives to survive and cross borders don't generally accept failure. The failures go home.
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