Marc Q
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Burn the land and boil the sea...
badge
You can't take the sky from me...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tonight we had a great game of TI:4, but the final score was a little messy.

Basically, the Hacan player sent a fleet of 5 Cruisers into the Yin flagship. The Yin player used the "Crown of Thalnos" agenda he had to reroll his flagship's shots: he missed both, and therefore destroyed the flagship and all the Cruisers along with it (pretty badass).

However, the Hacan player then claimed victory with "Destroy Their Greatest Ship".

This resulted in an energetic (albeit civil) discussion in which half the players believed that the Hacan player "destroyed" the flagship (they started combat, it was gone by the end of combat), and the other half feel that the Yin player destroyed their flagship (he did an action that specifically resulted in his ship being destroyed himself).

This is a pretty niche rules situation, but it does bring up a lot of weird corner-cases (if I activate a system and somebody ELSE uses PDS-II shots to destroy my entire fleet, does the defender claim a "win Space Combat" in that case? Did they destroy the ships or did the player with the PDS-II shots?).

But, specifically, is there a specific rule that states what constitutes a player destroying a ship?

Again, niche, but I couldn't find anything that specifically clarified the issue.

Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Marx09 wrote:
(if I activate a system and somebody ELSE uses PDS-II shots to destroy my entire fleet, does the defender claim a "win Space Combat" in that case? Did they destroy the ships or did the player with the PDS-II shots?).


Regarding this, specifically, there was never a space combat involved. PDS Offense and Space Combat are separate things.

As to the main question, I'm not 100% sure, but someone else will be...

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are many ways to destroy a ship, but most of the abilities in question also mention combat as another pre-requisite. Indeed, Space Cannon Offense happens at the end of the movement step. It is not part of Space Combat and there is no Space Combat if all ships are destroyed via Space Cannon Offense.

There are some rules that trigger simply on destruction of a ship, not in combat though (e.g., the Yin's Flagship self-destruct). Destruction of a ship is caused by a rule or effect that tells you to 'destroy' a ship. If the word 'destroy' is not used, then it isn't destruction. Also pay attention to which player is causing the destruction of the ship. For example, abilities may trigger when 'you' destroy a ship; you must have generated the hit or be responsible for the ability that destroys such a ship for it to count.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Casey H
United States
Wilmington
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Visit Mount Celeste
badge
You Can Do This!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Clipper wrote:
There are many ways to destroy a ship, but most of the abilities in question also mention combat as another pre-requisite. Indeed, Space Cannon Offense happens at the end of the movement step. It is not part of Space Combat and there is no Space Combat if all ships are destroyed via Space Cannon Offense.

There are some rules that trigger simply on destruction of a ship, not in combat though (e.g., the Yin's Flagship self-destruct). Destruction of a ship is caused by a rule or effect that tells you to 'destroy' a ship. If the word 'destroy' is not used, then it isn't destruction. Also pay attention to which player is causing the destruction of the ship. For example, abilities may trigger when 'you' destroy a ship; you must have generated the hit or be responsible for the ability that destroys such a ship for it to count.


For clarity, you're saying that the Hacan player did NOT destroy the Van Hauge and should NOT qualify for the Destroy Their Greatest Ship Secret Objective. Is that correct?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MollyMae wrote:
For clarity, you're saying that the Hacan player did NOT destroy the Van Hauge and should NOT qualify for the Destroy Their Greatest Ship Secret Objective. Is that correct?

I actually forgot to look at the situation in question! Oops.

Now that I look at it, it does seem that I did address the reasoning in my final additional note. Indeed, in this case, the Yin player is the one that destroyed the flagship; The Crown of Thalnos makes that clear. Destroy Their Greatest Ship cannot be scored in this situation.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris S
msg tools
I don't think it brings up any other niche questions because the two rules might be the only two rules to reference 'destroy'.
Except for perhaps destroying the Van Hauge with pds fire, which then 'destroys' all ships in the system. Can the person who shot the VH claim the PDS objective to destroy the last of a players ships in a system?

With such an unlikely/improbable situation, I would probably say yes, by shooting the VH with PDS he did in fact destroy the other ships, even if the wording on VH specifies that it does the destroying.

Is it enough to be directly responsible for the destroy effect?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Williams
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
BITS FOR THE BITS GOD!
badge
Staring in dumbfounded terror at Frans Raynor's neckbeard.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Surrealialis wrote:
Is it enough to be directly responsible for the destroy effect?


I would rule no, as the first part of Turn Their Fleets to Dust says "Use Space Cannon to destroy the last of a player's ships in a system". This is the same as using graviton lasers to destroy a carrier, and then the fighters die to being unsupported. Neither works as another game effect is causing the destruction, not Space Cannon.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The VH does the destroying and that means the player that shot the VH is not responsible. The Objective could not be scored unless the Vin Hauge was somehow the last Yin ship to be destroyed, which is up to the Yin to decide (unless it is the only ship of course).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.