Z Yong
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Okay, so here's the situation: Yesterday, my gaming group realised that we needed to reset our latest game due to a huge rules mistake that we made.

What foillowed was an hour of spirited debate as to what to do with the Oracle herb token for the game we are about to replay.

For context, we had already played 6 games by then, and had drawn 5 oracle cards (we did not draw a card for our first game). We were going to revert to the start of the 6th game and replay that game again with the correct rules.

My friend suggested that if the oracle token was revealed, instead of drawing an oracle card, that player should get a wild resource (player's choice). His rationale was that since we drew an oracle card in the game that we were replaying, we should not be able to draw an oracle card in the reset game because a card was already drawn for that game. Allowing the chance for another player to draw a new oracle card would fundamentally change our game as someone would get information that they would otherwise not have if we had played the 6th game correctly (i.e. we would draw a maximum of 5 oracle cards because we did not draw any in the first game). He argued that giving someone a wild resource will cause a smaller lasting impact to the game than someone obtaining premature information.

I argued that we should keep the oracle token as intended, because everybody had an equal chance of obtaining the oracle token and drawing the 6th oracle card due to the fact that the location of the oracle token is randomized. Furthermore, given that there was a possible scenario wherein we could legitimately draw 6 oracle cards by this point in the game without breaking any rules (i.e. in a scenario where we had drawn an oracle card in every game), that drawing 6 oracle cards instead of five would not impact the game at all. Also, I pointed out that we could not even determine the value of the oracle's information, so by replacing the oracle's ability for one wild resource, we were essentially determining what the value of an oracle card is by ourselves, thus making our own rules to the game.

Eventually, neither of us were swayed by the other, so we compromised and said we would change the oracle token to a random resource token instead. I was getting outvoted by the other members of the group and I argued that a random resource was at least better than a wild resource as the 'value' of that token would be identical to the other resource herb tokens.

So here's the milion-dollar question: Which of the options above would minimise the lasting impact of our mistake on the game and why? Alternatively, do you have a better suggestion to resolve this dilemma?

If you could present it in a logical way that could potentially convince one of us to take the other's side, that'd be the icing on top of the cake Of course we might not even open the oracle at all, but I personally think this is an intriguing conundrum as the both of us think our proposal is the one that will affect the game the least.
 
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Brian Thomas
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First things first: You play to have fun, right? So the best option is the option that allows everyone to move forward without feeling resentment. As you'll see below, I think your existing compromise is a good one, and you would be wise to not bring this up again with the group because re-opening the argument after you've already found a compromise is only going to result in resentment. Not worth it!


That said, let me suggest that the game's designers have already essentially given you the value of the oracle token - since it is randomized with the rest of the tokens, that suggests that the designers believe that the information on an oracle card (any oracle card) is no more valuable, overall, than any of the herbs or other random rewards. I will not argue that the tokens are all exactly equal in value, but I think there is a strong argument that the designers believe that the random draw of tokens will not sway the game too much. Since there is only one oracle token, we can infer that they do not believe that one person gaining information is going to give too large an advantage.

Now consider the idea of a "wild" resource, which does not exist in the game, and is clearly more powerful than any of the herb tokens. You are introducing something into the game that has not been playtested or balanced. It may seem clear that the advantage is not large, but in the right circumstances, this could be the little boost that decides the game, handed out completely randomly. It could also be insignificant. But you are taking a chance, and you are adding something to the game that was not in it before.

Therefore, I think that leaving the oracle token in is acceptable (since the designers seem to think the cards are no better than any other herb token). Removing it from the pool along with one random token of each other herb type (so the balance of types of herbs remains the same) would also be an acceptable option, and might be more palatable to your group. Your compromise is essentially the same thing, so that's what I would recommend.
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Jack Spirio
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Quote:
Now consider the idea of a "wild" resource, which does not exist in the game, and is clearly more powerful than any of the herb tokens.


wild resources do exist, it's the "?" symbol

I think all 3 options are valid and probably none breaks the game, you could make it roll a basic die (if anyone has one left) and get the resource rolled, or a wild on A

what was the failure that made you replay the whole scenario?
and you always look for all herbs?
we only managed to get that token 3 times (but only 3 player)
 
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Sam R
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assault92 wrote:
Okay, so here's the situation: Yesterday, my gaming group realised that we needed to reset our latest game due to a huge rules mistake that we made.

What foillowed was an hour of spirited debate as to what to do with the Oracle herb token for the game we are about to replay.

For context, we had already played 6 games by then, and had drawn 5 oracle cards (we did not draw a card for our first game). We were going to revert to the start of the 6th game and replay that game again with the correct rules.

My friend suggested that if the oracle token was revealed, instead of drawing an oracle card, that player should get a wild resource (player's choice). His rationale was that since we drew an oracle card in the game that we were replaying, we should not be able to draw an oracle card in the reset game because a card was already drawn for that game. Allowing the chance for another player to draw a new oracle card would fundamentally change our game as someone would get information that they would otherwise not have if we had played the 6th game correctly (i.e. we would draw a maximum of 5 oracle cards because we did not draw any in the first game). He argued that giving someone a wild resource will cause a smaller lasting impact to the game than someone obtaining premature information.

I argued that we should keep the oracle token as intended, because everybody had an equal chance of obtaining the oracle token and drawing the 6th oracle card due to the fact that the location of the oracle token is randomized. Furthermore, given that there was a possible scenario wherein we could legitimately draw 6 oracle cards by this point in the game without breaking any rules (i.e. in a scenario where we had drawn an oracle card in every game), that drawing 6 oracle cards instead of five would not impact the game at all. Also, I pointed out that we could not even determine the value of the oracle's information, so by replacing the oracle's ability for one wild resource, we were essentially determining what the value of an oracle card is by ourselves, thus making our own rules to the game.

Eventually, neither of us were swayed by the other, so we compromised and said we would change the oracle token to a random resource token instead. I was getting outvoted by the other members of the group and I argued that a random resource was at least better than a wild resource as the 'value' of that token would be identical to the other resource herb tokens.

So here's the milion-dollar question: Which of the options above would minimise the lasting impact of our mistake on the game and why? Alternatively, do you have a better suggestion to resolve this dilemma?

If you could present it in a logical way that could potentially convince one of us to take the other's side, that'd be the icing on top of the cake Of course we might not even open the oracle at all, but I personally think this is an intriguing conundrum as the both of us think our proposal is the one that will affect the game the least.


None of them break the game. Plus, you’ll still have a lot of games left so it won’t really matter in the long run.

But in my personal opinion, I agree that a random resource token is the best choice. But, truth be told, the oracle cards are not as powerful as your group may think, So even that option would be ok. I think the resource of choice is the most powerful, but again, None of those are game breaking.

Here’s my advice overall:

Provide a solution. Vote on it. Majority wins. That’s it. If you keep this up, you’ll suck the fun out of the game, later games will introduce more stuff that might cause you to cause rules mistakes. Decide on how to resolve major issues now when and if they come up.

You can say, owner of the game gets to choose what is correct here, you can vote on the given solutions by players, or you can all throw your solutions into a hat and draw them randomly and that one sticks. Or use the priority tie breaker in the game, whoever has the most (ribbons? Or whatever it was) of those things on their buildings wins the priority and gets to decide resolution.

Either way, Don’t argue about which way is best, the best way is following the rules as they are written (obviously) but A mistake happened so that option is not available now. So what am I saying, you ask? There is no best way, there is only what you perceive to be the best way now. For you the best way was to still draw a card, for the other person it’s to get a resource of choice. Neither of those are correct, why? They are not In The rules to resolve like that when a mistake happens (obviously). What you think is the best way, no matter what your explanation of it is, does not matter. Same for the other person, their explanation of why it’s the best way, does not matter. So what do you do now? Decide together and compromise on something everyone is happy with.

It won’t be the best way, because it’ll be wrong per the rules, but it’s a matter of everyone agreeing to something and being able to move past the issue and enjoy the game.

Arguing about the best way is pointless, and honestly to me, it seems more of an ego argument (no! My way is best because I make more sense than you! I’m right you’re wrong!) kind of thing. This may not be the case with your group but based in the information given that’s how I would see it.

So a bit long, but my advice is to decide as a group how you’ll resolve these things when they come up. I strongly advice to talk about it, give your ideas and listen to other’s ideas, then do a vote. Take the majority ruling (if there’s a tie flip a coin or something) and go with that. And then let it go.

I hope I didn’t come off as preachy, just giving my personal advice and what’s worked best with my group playing this and many other legacy games. Rules mistakes are always bound to happen in these kinds of games.
 
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David desJardins
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Some player already got the benefit of the Clairvoyant. You can't erase that information from their mind. So what I would do would be to put the Clairvoyant token in that player's area and make it the first token they pick up so they get the same information as before.
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Z Yong
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Some player already got the benefit of the Clairvoyant. You can't erase that information from their mind. So what I would do would be to put the Clairvoyant token in that player's area and make it the first token they pick up so they get the same information as before.


That's an intriguing idea, but what about the herb hut? Does he need to make the purple herb his starting hut, or should he just ensure that he needs to make the effort to pick up the oracle token first, regardless of whether he has the matching herb hut? How about instead of doing that, the player who received the oracle information does not receive any benefit for the first herb token they collect? And then if someone opens the oracle later on in the game, they collect a random resource instead?

Also, for the rest who are worried, please be assured that we aren't resenting each other over this, it's just a small mutual disagreement

EDIT: For those wondering, the rules mistake is regarding
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the crown bar. One player started the game with 16 Fame points instead of 2, leading to a massive 14 point miscalculation. We decided to reset the game after finding out about the mistake.
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David desJardins
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assault92 wrote:
How about instead of doing that, the player who received the oracle information does not receive any benefit for the first herb token they collect? And then if someone opens the oracle later on in the game, they collect a random resource instead?


That sounds reasonable to me.
 
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