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Subject: Advantage ends? rss

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Richard A. Edwards
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I’m struggling a bit with Advantage. There seem to be many ways to gain Advantage/Disadvantage, and that gives +2/-2 but I cannot find anything that says you “spend” or remove the token except “not beyond the end of combat.”

I don’t see anything that says you only get to use it once. So if I have Advantage, does it stay throughout the combat, affecting every attack roll, u til the end of combat?

Or do you get the modifier once on one roll and then remove it?

The rules do say they “carry over from one Combat Round to another”, so it seems to imply you keep it until something else removes it.

But in a few places the rules say “next roll”, which might imply ONLY the next roll.

Which is it?
 
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Russell Corbally
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I don't have the rules out, but I've always used it just for the next roll (can carry over to another round, but not to another combat)
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Josh
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Rules glossary entry for advantage is listed as 'next roll.' The references to carrying over round to round just a reminder that next roll doesn't end with a combat round.
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Richard A. Edwards
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Shadrach wrote:
Rules glossary entry for advantage is listed as 'next roll.' The references to carrying over round to round just a reminder that next roll doesn't end with a combat round.

Yes, but it doesn’t say “Only” next roll. If the token stays, then it would apply repeatedly.

The main rules don’t say anything about “next roll” either.

Thus my confusion.

This should really be clarified in the rules specifically.
 
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Targanth Phelandir
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I've been using the Player Aid to help me step through combat, and it has helped me to apply Advantage.

Going in to Combat, the first roll is for Surprise. If the Heroes roll is 4 greater than the Alertness Value of the Foe, The Heroes ALL gain Advantage for the ENGAGEMENT Round. If the Heroes Roll is lower than the Alertness Value of the Foe, The Heroes ALL have Disadvantage for the ENGAGEMENT Round. So for Surprise, Advantage/Disadvantage carries over from Hero to Hero.

After the Engagement Round, there is a step to check Morale. If the Foe is a Unique Foe AND has reached the Breakpoint for that Foe, the Heroes get one more Combat Round and during that round ALL Heroes gain Advantage for all Combat Tests. This is the only place during the Morale step that Advantage might be applied.

In normal combat, after the Engagement Round, Advantage/Disadvantage carries over to the next Hero/Foe to roll during combat. The footnote specifies:
If a result would give Disadvantage/Advantage and it's their opponent who acts next (e.g. a Foe gained an Advantage result and it's a Hero's action) then they gain the opposite effect. (e.g. Disadvantage instead of Advantage).

Thus from the player aid, the answer is that it is situational. In the Engagement Round it carries over from Hero to Hero. In regular Combat Rounds, it carries over to the next Combat die roll.
 
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Ryan Byrd
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Targanth wrote:

In regular Combat Rounds, it carries over to the next Combat die roll.


Also, in the rules, the "Advance" result gives Advantage to the next Hero (or Disadvantage to the next Ranged creature), thus being consistent with what I quoted.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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Targanth wrote:
So for Surprise, Advantage/Disadvantage carries over from Hero to Hero.

I find that wording confusing, although I agree with the end result. I wouldn't think of it as advantage being handed down from hero to hero during the round. Instead, all heroes are granted advantage at the start of the round, and as they each make their roll, they lose their advantage.
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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I understand how they gain Advantage/Disadvantage.

My question was about how long it lasts.

Comments seem to suggest after applying to +2/-2 to the next roll, the Advantage/Disadvantage goes away/stops.

But the rules don’t seem to state that anywhere, causing me confusion as to whether the modifier applies just once on one roll or is applied to all rolls until an opposite affect cancels it or the combat ends.
 
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Ryan Byrd
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I see your question. I thought I read something about this that caused me to answer as I did earlier. Perhaps it was in an example, or in the tutorial adventure.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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SirRoke wrote:
My question was about how long it lasts.

Comments seem to suggest after applying to +2/-2 to the next roll, the Advantage/Disadvantage goes away/stops.

But the rules don’t seem to state that anywhere, causing me confusion as to whether the modifier applies just once on one roll or is applied to all rolls until an opposite affect cancels it or the combat ends.

I agree that it would have been nice to state that explicitly. It is implied in a few ways. The rulebook says:

"If any of these attacks generates Advantage or Disadvantage then this is applied to the next attack, whether made by the same Hero or the next Hero or Creature to attack."

If they had meant for the advantage to persist beyond that next attack, presumably they would have written:

"If any of these attacks generates Advantage or Disadvantage then this is applied starting with the next attack, whether made by the same Hero or the next Hero or Creature to attack."

 
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Richard A. Edwards
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peakhope wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
My question was about how long it lasts.

Comments seem to suggest after applying to +2/-2 to the next roll, the Advantage/Disadvantage goes away/stops.

But the rules don’t seem to state that anywhere, causing me confusion as to whether the modifier applies just once on one roll or is applied to all rolls until an opposite affect cancels it or the combat ends.

I agree that it would have been nice to state that explicitly. It is implied in a few ways. The rulebook says:

"If any of these attacks generates Advantage or Disadvantage then this is applied to the next attack, whether made by the same Hero or the next Hero or Creature to attack."

If they had meant for the advantage to persist beyond that next attack, presumably they would have written:

"If any of these attacks generates Advantage or Disadvantage then this is applied starting with the next attack, whether made by the same Hero or the next Hero or Creature to attack."


I would have thought if they meant it to apply as you suggest they would have written "If any of these attacks generates Advantage or Disadvantage then this is applied to the next attack only, whether made by the same Hero or the next Hero or Creature to attack."

The lack of a limited implies by default it remains. The rules talk about how to gain Advantage/Disadvantage but not when to remove it, except at end of combat.

And they do say to remove it at the end of combat, which implies once gained you keep it until then.
 
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Gary Beason
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If I say I'll meet you next Tuesday, do you think I'll meet you on Tuesdays after that? That would be a non-standard interpretation. Instead, we would qualify "next" to extend beyond the one instance. "I'll meet the next 5 Tuesdays" or "I'll meet you next Tuesday and the remaining Tuesdays in the month."

"Next" denotes the immediately following person, instance, or thing. When you're standing in line at the store, the cashier says, "Next." The one customer in line steps up, not the next 4 or 5 customers. "Only" isn't necessary because unless a number is specified, we think of it as singular.

In fact, the rule quoted used the singular "attack." I'm not sure how to interpret it as plural.

There are several easy ways to write the rule so that it applies to more than one attack.
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Richard A. Edwards
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gbeason wrote:
If I say I'll meet you next Tuesday, do you think I'll meet you on Tuesdays after that? That would be a non-standard interpretation. Instead, we would qualify "next" to extend beyond the one instance. "I'll meet the next 5 Tuesdays" or "I'll meet you next Tuesday and the remaining Tuesdays in the month."

"Next" denotes the immediately following person, instance, or thing. When you're standing in line at the store, the cashier says, "Next." The one customer in line steps up, not the next 4 or 5 customers. "Only" isn't necessary because unless a number is specified, we think of it as singular.

In fact, the rule quoted used the singular "attack." I'm not sure how to interpret it as plural.

There are several easy ways to write the rule so that it applies to more than one attack.


Good point, but the rules don’t say “next”.

Rules page 43, “Advantage and Disadvantage”

Heroes and Creatures may gain Advantage or Disadvantage to their rolls in Combat.
Advantage grants +2 to the roll for their attack.
Disadvantage grants -2 to the roll for their attack.
Use the Advantage/Disadvantage token to show if you have +2 or -2 to your combat roll.
You cannot gain Advantage or Disadvantage more than once on a roll. If you have both then they cancel out, no matter how many times either one was gained.
Various Combat results can give a bonus or penalty to whoever attacks next, depending on whether they are on the same side as the Hero or Creature who got the result.
[Examples removed]
Note that Advantage and Disadvantage carry over from one Combat Round to the next, but not beyond the end of Combat. Also note that the next attacker could even be the same Hero who generated the result.

“Next” is used in the Glossary.

“Advantage - The Hero gains +2 to their next roll. Advantage does not stack with itself and is cancelled by Disadvantage.”

Having Advantage gives +2 to the next roll, but does not say it cancels the Advantage. Disadvantage cancels Advantage.

And Advantage is often given to the “next hero”.

In both cases “next” refers to the roll or the attacker not to the Advantage token.

My question is when is the token removed?

Fear rules do this well.

Fear – The Hero gains a [Fear] token if they do not have one already. While the Hero has the [Fear] token they gain Weakness for all Tests (see page 33). Remove the [Fear] token at the end of the Rest Phase.

There is no rule to “Remove the Advantage/Disadvantage token after use.”

I apologize for beating a dead horse (poor horse). I promise to stop after this.

I think you’re correct about it applying to the next attack and then you no longer have Advantage, but as a rules editor I find the clarity of the writing poor and I hope they will clarify officially.



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Gary Beason
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You can find my beating a dead horse in the FAQ thread.

"There is no rule to “Remove the Advantage/Disadvantage token after use.”"

I agree. I write technical documents for a living, and I have to state things explicitly like this, whether it's for a very technical person or a general user. Even saying that each Adv or Disadv is a one-time use would work.

In general, I find that game manuals don't qualify well, especially when it regards their own jargon. "You have three different ways to do damage, and you don't specify which one this spell affects???"

 
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Jimmy Pattaya
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On this same theme, the "Advance" result in combat puzzles me.

Let me give an example. I'm using the Speed Shooting ability on the Rapid Shot Weapon Talent for Ranged attacks. This allows me 2 additional shots with my Hero's Bow. The WT says "you have Disadvantage on all of your attacks this round".

Question #1: If the previous attack by another of my Heroes had given me a +2 Advantage, would that neutralize my Disadvantage for my first shot with the Speed Shooting ability (assuming the Advantage lasts for only 1 shot --- although an Official Ruling is needed as to its duration because of so much disagreement).

Question #2: If my first shot is an "Advance (Ranged)" result, what would happen? The "Advance (Ranged)" result states that: "The next attacker gains either Advantage (Hero) or Disadvantage (Ranged Creature)." Since I have 2 more shots in this round am I the "next Attacker"? Or is the next attacker the Hero or Creature who follows me? I can interpret this both ways.

How do you think the Advance combat result should be interpreted?
 
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Josh
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SirRoke wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Rules glossary entry for advantage is listed as 'next roll.' The references to carrying over round to round just a reminder that next roll doesn't end with a combat round.

Yes, but it doesn’t say “Only” next roll. If the token stays, then it would apply repeatedly.

The main rules don’t say anything about “next roll” either.

Thus my confusion.

This should really be clarified in the rules specifically.


Actually no you are not being precise enough in your critique of their imprecission. The token does *not* give you a +2/-2. The rules state on page 43 the token is only used to *show* you have the +2/-2. Therefor when you have advantage and you gain a +2 on your next roll you place the token. You roll with the +2 and unless you gain advantage in the future you no longer have the +2 therefor you would remove the token by default since it would otherwise be showing a +2 you no longer have. Similarly if you somehow were to gsin disadvantage while you had advantage the two would cancel out and you would have to remove the token because you would noonger have the bonus it showed.

Tl;dr the tokens are descriptive not operative as the rules are written.
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Josh
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Targanth wrote:
I've been using the Player Aid to help me step through combat, and it has helped me to apply Advantage.

Going in to Combat, the first roll is for Surprise. If the Heroes roll is 4 greater than the Alertness Value of the Foe, The Heroes ALL gain Advantage for the ENGAGEMENT Round. If the Heroes Roll is lower than the Alertness Value of the Foe, The Heroes ALL have Disadvantage for the ENGAGEMENT Round. So for Surprise, Advantage/Disadvantage carries over from Hero to Hero.



This isn't quite right. If the heroes are surprised enemy ranged units have advantage in the surprise round and hero melee characters have disadvantage. Hero ranged attackers have no bonus/penalty.

The easiest way to think of surprise is that the bonus goes to the whole side. Since melee enemies never 'attack' you instead apply disadvantage to the hero which will move the hero rolls further down the chart toward something beneficial for the enemy.
 
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Josh
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Esto wrote:
On this same theme, the "Advance" result in combat puzzles me.

Let me give an example. I'm using the Speed Shooting ability on the Rapid Shot Weapon Talent for Ranged attacks. This allows me 2 additional shots with my Hero's Bow. The WT says "you have Disadvantage on all of your attacks this round".

Question #1: If the previous attack by another of my Heroes had given me a +2 Advantage, would that neutralize my Disadvantage for my first shot with the Speed Shooting ability (assuming the Advantage lasts for only 1 shot --- although an Official Ruling is needed as to its duration because of so much disagreement).

Question #2: If my first shot is an "Advance (Ranged)" result, what would happen? The "Advance (Ranged)" result states that: "The next attacker gains either Advantage (Hero) or Disadvantage (Ranged Creature)." Since I have 2 more shots in this round am I the "next Attacker"? Or is the next attacker the Hero or Creature who follows me? I can interpret this both ways.

How do you think the Advance combat result should be interpreted?


Question 1)It would neutralize it for your first attack. Advance gives advantage(if a hero is next) for the next attack roll. You're making multiple attacks.

Question2)You give it to your second shot. You make 1 ranged attack. Then you make a second ranged attack. After the first attack you are the 'next attacker' on your second attack. Bracketing fire for the win.
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Hugh Ducker
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The tokens are there as a player aid/reminder. You do not "gain or spend advantage tokens". They were added in after players during demo games wanted a way of remembering if they had advantage or not.

Advantage and disadvantage generslly only apply to the hero's next attack. Not all attacks. You do not have advantage or disadvantage by default. So after making an attack with advantage or disadvantage you would return to not having either unless an effect said otherwise (eg surprise, as it gives advantage for all attacks that round).

In answer to your questions:
1) your first shot had both advantage and disadvantage so you would shoot at +0.

2) if you gained advance on your first shot of speed shooting then it would apply to the next hero making an attack, which is you, so you would gain advantage for your next attack.

Hugh Ducker, lead games designer, inspiring games.
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Gary Beason
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Shadrach wrote:

This isn't quite right. If the heroes are surprised enemy ranged units have advantage in the surprise round and hero melee characters have disadvantage. Hero ranged attackers have no bonus/penalty.


Ducker wrote "If the Party is surprised then all Heroes gain Disadvantage; ranged or melee. Disadvantage only applies to attacks." The player aid says the same thing about all heroes having disadvantage.

Does it matter whether ranged enemies have advantage or ranged heroes have disadvantage? It does if the enemy isn't ranged. So, they're not exactly interchangeable rules.



https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31753367#31753367


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Josh
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gbeason wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

This isn't quite right. If the heroes are surprised enemy ranged units have advantage in the surprise round and hero melee characters have disadvantage. Hero ranged attackers have no bonus/penalty.


Ducker wrote "If the Party is surprised then all Heroes gain Disadvantage; ranged or melee. Disadvantage only applies to attacks." The player aid says the same thing about all heroes having disadvantage.

Does it matter whether ranged enemies have advantage or ranged heroes have disadvantage? It does if the enemy isn't ranged. So, they're not exactly interchangeable rules.



https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31753367#31753367




That's weird, I was quoting the rulebook page 38 right out. I wonder why it was changed after the rulebook was printed.
 
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Ryan Byrd
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Shadrach wrote:
gbeason wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

This isn't quite right. If the heroes are surprised enemy ranged units have advantage in the surprise round and hero melee characters have disadvantage. Hero ranged attackers have no bonus/penalty.


Ducker wrote "If the Party is surprised then all Heroes gain Disadvantage; ranged or melee. Disadvantage only applies to attacks." The player aid says the same thing about all heroes having disadvantage.

Does it matter whether ranged enemies have advantage or ranged heroes have disadvantage? It does if the enemy isn't ranged. So, they're not exactly interchangeable rules.



https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31753367#31753367




That's weird, I was quoting the rulebook page 38 right out. I wonder why it was changed after the rulebook was printed.


It is getting muddled, but to me, it is mathematically the same. Semantically, disadvantage is a negative adder when it is someone's turn to attack. Advantage is a positive adder when it is someone's turn to attack. Gaining Advantage or Disadvantage is a result of something that happened to someone (Surprise, Advance, etc). I do not see that the rules changed (but each response makes it harder to follow the discussion).
 
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Gary Beason
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ryan_c_byrd wrote:

It is getting muddled, but to me, it is mathematically the same. Semantically, disadvantage is a negative adder when it is someone's turn to attack. Advantage is a positive adder when it is someone's turn to attack. Gaining Advantage or Disadvantage is a result of something that happened to someone (Surprise, Advance, etc). I do not see that the rules changed (but each response makes it harder to follow the discussion).


Mathematically, you're right: +2 for enemy attack is pretty much the same as -2 for hero attack. But there's still a meaningful difference that I've encountered more than once.

Enemy Range Advantage only applies if there's a Ranged enemy. That means in the case of a melee enemy, only the melee hero has a change to their attack.

But with Hero Range Disadvantage, it doesn't matter if the enemy is ranged or melee. All heroes roll with disadvantage.

Thematically, the Enemy Range Advantage doesn't really work to me. With a melee enemy, the melee heroes are surprised but not the ranged heroes. With a ranged enemy, both ranged and melee heroes are surprised.

Plus, it's a more elegant rule to say all heroes have disadvantage.
 
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Josh
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gbeason wrote:
ryan_c_byrd wrote:

It is getting muddled, but to me, it is mathematically the same. Semantically, disadvantage is a negative adder when it is someone's turn to attack. Advantage is a positive adder when it is someone's turn to attack. Gaining Advantage or Disadvantage is a result of something that happened to someone (Surprise, Advance, etc). I do not see that the rules changed (but each response makes it harder to follow the discussion).


Mathematically, you're right: +2 for enemy attack is pretty much the same as -2 for hero attack. But there's still a meaningful difference that I've encountered more than once.

Enemy Range Advantage only applies if there's a Ranged enemy. That means in the case of a melee enemy, only the melee hero has a change to their attack.

But with Hero Range Disadvantage, it doesn't matter if the enemy is ranged or melee. All heroes roll with disadvantage.

Thematically, the Enemy Range Advantage doesn't really work to me. With a melee enemy, the melee heroes are surprised but not the ranged heroes. With a ranged enemy, both ranged and melee heroes are surprised.

Plus, it's a more elegant rule to say all heroes have disadvantage.
giving ranged heroes disadvsntage makes them more likely to shoot their allies. Surprise just oushes the side who has towards doing better, it doesn't make the otherside fumblefingered. It might feel that way in melee on account of how melee attacks are a push-pull system, but there's no equivilent in ranged. That's why I think the distinction makes a difference.
 
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Gary Beason
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It's now confirmed: All heroes get disadvantage.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31830460#31830460
 
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