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Through the Ages: A New Story of Civilization» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Is it more fair to resign or to let everyone gang up rss

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I'm arguing with some irl friends about resignation. They don't like resignations on the basis that it screws over the guy that built the best military and seeded strength cards, etc.

My stance is that it is more fair to screw over the one that drew the best military cards and make it a 1v2 game rather than a 3v1 game. In my view, it is almost impossible to lose a game with someone extremely far in 4th if you draw the best military cards
Poll
Is it more fair to resign when you're too far behind to come in 3rd place/aren't being allowed to keep resources to build military or to ride it out until the end of the game so you don't screw over the people that built military to take advantage
Resignation when that far behind is OK
You should never resign unless an uprising is unavoidable
      128 answers
Poll created by Algroshaw
 
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Reddish22
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I think because Resignation is allowed in the rules, the system expects players not to incentivize another player resigning (in a 3+ player game) by making their game completely miserable. There’s a self-interest to it too - you don’t want to remove completely someone that you can take things from or use to jump ahead of the leader. I think because of that, the system wants you to spread around the attacks.

Just my take.
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Brent Celmins
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The idea that the military leader has some proprietary right to victory in a multiplayer game is just nonsense. If the game wanted this, there would be no resignation rule, there's zero validity to the argument given the game rules.

The looming threat of resignation is definitely a check to keep players from annihilating the military laggard. You have to take that into consideration before you launch an Age II war or an Age III War Over Culture before the changeover to Age IV.

If you don't consider that possibility before launching your war, then it's your fault, not the game. Don't blame the person who resigns.

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Justin
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I won't speak for intent, but I do personally hold that to be the value of encoding resignation into the rules. If someone is behind, fine, take your lumps and try to get back. If they're radically behind and don't resign, I find that it turns the game into an aggression/war card-catching contest, with turn order advantages for extra fun.
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Justin
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SWxNW wrote:
You have to take that into consideration before you launch an Age II war or an Age III War Over Culture before the changeover to Age IV.

The app implementation of the latest version does not permit resignations in Age IV, FWIW.
 
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Björn
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reddish22 wrote:
I think because Resignation is allowed in the rules, the system expects players not to incentivize another player resigning (in a 3+ player game) by making their game completely miserable. There’s a self-interest to it too - you don’t want to remove completely someone that you can take things from or use to jump ahead of the leader. I think because of that, the system wants you to spread around the attacks.

Just my take.

This!
Especially in a Tabletop (non-digital) session I've not seen people gang up vs. 1 militarily weak player because it just sucks. You give him some beating and then the chance to stand up again unless he doesn't even want to anymore and that's the moment to resign ;-)

Doesn't count for 1v1 games of course, there it's totally okay to use your opponent's weakness and maybe start another game if he cannot get up anymore :-)
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Brent Celmins
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astroglide wrote:
SWxNW wrote:
You have to take that into consideration before you launch an Age II war or an Age III War Over Culture before the changeover to Age IV.

The app implementation of the latest version does not permit resignations in Age IV, FWIW.


Correct, Age IV resignations are not allowed. What I meant was if you declare a WoC that will resolve before Age III ends, you run the risk of gaining only 7 points from it.
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I left out the part where we wanted to play 6-4-2-0 point tournaments, which apparently changes everything because "you can resign to kingmake or screw over someone ahead of you"

Which I left out because kingmaking is bad faith and against the rules ANYWAY..
 
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Brent Celmins
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Algroshaw wrote:
I left out the part where we wanted to play 6-4-2-0 point tournaments, which apparently changes everything because "you can resign to kingmake or screw over someone ahead of you"

Which I left out because kingmaking is bad faith and against the rules ANYWAY..


Changes nothing. There are competitive multiplayer leagues where points are scored based on placement. They allow resignations.

What your group seems to be missing about resignation is that it's not screwing anyone over... it's inherent to the strategies in the game. Your group needs to play accordingly, and decide whether potential resignation is worth that huge war. I think you'll find it brings more nuance to the gameplay.
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Nacho Facello
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Algroshaw wrote:
I left out the part where we wanted to play 6-4-2-0 point tournaments, which apparently changes everything because "you can resign to kingmake or screw over someone ahead of you"

Which I left out because kingmaking is bad faith and against the rules ANYWAY..


When you add tournament rules on top of game rules, you're no longer playing the game, you're playing the tournament. It's perfectly fine to throw a game if it gives you better chances in the overall tournament, just like it's perfectly fine to underperform in a portion of an individual game if it gives you a better chance to win the game.
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Wes Holland

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Ideally the military laggard is also the culture leader, so getting that person to resign is a net boon to everyone else at the table, except for the military leader. In that regard, the military leader may want to look to hit the other players if they're behind in culture.

The resignation rule exists for two reasons: First, no one should be forced to play a game they no longer want to play for the sake of the others in the game. (Seriously.) Secondly, Military alone won't win you the game in 3-4 player games, as long as you only pick on one person. The person you decide to pick on will just resign and deny you the rewards of your military strength.

There's more reasons, but those are the two biggest ones I see. Resignation is a key part of the game.
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E_R S
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Much debated on this site.

Quick fix for resignation rule:

1. If an age III aggression or war is played against the player last in both military and culture, the attacked player leaves the game immediately, unless he can defeat the aggression/ war, and the attacker gets seven points and nothing else from the action.

2. If a player is last in culture and first in military strength, he can only play aggressions and wars against the player first in culture.

#1 presents competitive strip mining of weak players, at most you knock them from the game and get seven points. # 2 limits the ability of high military low culture meatheads to play kingmaker if they have neglected culture to the point where they can't win. These rules have enough give that in practice they don't come into play too often, just enough to prevent unsatisfactory ludic situations.

The resignation rule in RAW is a band-aid on the fact that there is a big incentive in the game to gangbang the weakest player for culture and resources, and this in ludic terms at least is not satisfactory and was recognized as such even by the designers, so the explicit rule that "well at least you can resign if you are getting raped." But you can quit any game in existance on this planet, even tic tac toe. You want formal rules evicting the weaklings less they clog up the system and probably the all military stuff should be toned down a bit.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Quick fix for the resignation rule: Ban it! (by far the most common response in my 1500+ games)

I never play with anyone that would resign, or replay with anyone that does.
 
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Brent Celmins
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Kelanen wrote:
Quick fix for the resignation rule: Ban it! (by far the most common response in my 1500+ games)

I never play with anyone that would resign, or replay with anyone that does.


I have a love/hate relationship with players who never resign. On the one hand, if I know this kind of player is in the game, it completely removes the risk of playing what would otherwise be a game-ending War Over Territory in the Age II-III changeover.

On the other hand, if another player gets the benefit of this stubbornness, it definitely feels unfair given the rules of the game.

I don't resign often, but I'll definitely resign if I know my game is effectively over.

Also, I've used resignation as a way to keep my lead in games, before. In Age III, if the strength leader declares WoC on a weak opponent and is depending on that culture gain to take the lead, I might also declare war as a way of forcing the victim to resign.
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Ben Kyo
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Kelanen wrote:
Quick fix for the resignation rule: Ban it! (by far the most common response in my 1500+ games)

I never play with anyone that would resign, or replay with anyone that does.

That's weird. Do you rely on military wins a lot, by any chance?

I'm genuinely confused by this attitude. I know players who never resign, and I think they are silly and warp game results in a way that is detrimental to the game, but you are the first person I've heard voice this strenuous objection to any other player resigning.
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Joe Blow
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Not resigning when you have a lost game has to be nonsensical.
 
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Benkyo wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
Quick fix for the resignation rule: Ban it! (by far the most common response in my 1500+ games)

I never play with anyone that would resign, or replay with anyone that does.

That's weird. Do you rely on military wins a lot, by any chance?


No, quite the opposite. But resigning from any game is bad sportsmanship in my book.

Face to face players feel the same, and I usually put 'No resignations' in game titles online.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Kelanen wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
Quick fix for the resignation rule: Ban it! (by far the most common response in my 1500+ games)

I never play with anyone that would resign, or replay with anyone that does.

That's weird. Do you rely on military wins a lot, by any chance?


No, quite the opposite. But resigning from any game is bad sportsmanship in my book.

Face to face players feel the same, and I usually put 'No resignations' in game titles online.

Face to face is tricky, because you can end up with someone twiddling their thumbs for an hour or more, waiting for a game to end. If there are no other games to join, or anything else for them to do, that's the one situation where I would actually encourage the target to speak up and say "you know, if you commit to that war, I'll have to resign...", and allow a Political Action to be retracted/corrected. Much as some people hate that kind of table talk, I think it is worse to ignore (or be ignorant of) the game state and push on with a war that you know can only result in a player being taken out of the game permanently. Of course, if that is the desired result, I'd also have no problem with the War being played, and the resigner resigning. Given that it is face to face, I'd also have no problem with the player who has already lost stubbornly sticking it out, and acting as a cash machine for every other military player to withdraw from at will. That's just how people are, there's a strong social contract to accept different styles of play.

Online is a different matter. Less time commitment, mostly strangers, etc.

"No resignation" games are fine if advertised as such. I can imagine that preventing random dropping out by strangers who aren't committed to a game could be a goal of such advertising (but surely timing out is much more of an issue than actual resignations?), and if everyone knows in advance that dogpiling on an unlucky/unprepared player is possible, it just makes military pushes stronger, but doesn't break the game.

"Bad sportsmanship" though, that's just bullshit. It could only be considered bad sportsmanship to resign if all players had agreed at the start of the game to play by the rules of your "no resignation" variant. Otherwise, it would be bad sportsmanship to criticise someone for resigning, or even worse to force them to continue playing.
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Kelanen wrote:
No, quite the opposite. But resigning from any game is bad sportsmanship in my book.


Here's a much better example of bad sportsmanship: refusing to play with someone who does something that's well within the rules.

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Benkyo wrote:

"Bad sportsmanship" though, that's just bullshit. It could only be considered bad sportsmanship to resign if all players had agreed at the start of the game to play by the rules of your "no resignation" variant. Otherwise, it would be bad sportsmanship to criticise someone for resigning, or even worse to force them to continue playing.


So in other games, do you think it's fine for a player doing badly to just resign and drop out part way through? You'd find yourself very short of games, very quickly in the groups I play with...

SWxNW wrote:

Here's a much better example of bad sportsmanship: refusing to play with someone who does something that's well within the rules.


Then we have no worldview in common. Choosing not to play with all sorts of players in all sorts of games for all sorts of reasons, is just common sense in my book.
 
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Kelanen wrote:
Benkyo wrote:

"Bad sportsmanship" though, that's just bullshit. It could only be considered bad sportsmanship to resign if all players had agreed at the start of the game to play by the rules of your "no resignation" variant. Otherwise, it would be bad sportsmanship to criticise someone for resigning, or even worse to force them to continue playing.


So in other games, do you think it's fine for a player doing badly to just resign and drop out part way through? You'd find yourself very short of games, very quickly in the groups I play with...


Even in games in which resignation is explicitly allowed? Seems odd that you’d penalize someone for doing what the rules allow.
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Brent Celmins
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Quote:
So in other games, do you think it's fine for a player doing badly to just resign and drop out part way through? You'd find yourself very short of games, very quickly in the groups I play with...


Many games don't allow for resignations in the rules, so it's a false equivalency.

Kelanen wrote:
Then we have no worldview in common. Choosing not to play with all sorts of players in all sorts of games for all sorts of reasons, is just common sense in my book.


All sorts of reasons, indeed, but playing by the rules-as-written is not one of the reasons to I would ever avoid playing a game with someone.

That's just common sense in my book.
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Ben Kyo
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Kelanen wrote:
Benkyo wrote:

"Bad sportsmanship" though, that's just bullshit. It could only be considered bad sportsmanship to resign if all players had agreed at the start of the game to play by the rules of your "no resignation" variant. Otherwise, it would be bad sportsmanship to criticise someone for resigning, or even worse to force them to continue playing.


So in other games, do you think it's fine for a player doing badly to just resign and drop out part way through? You'd find yourself very short of games, very quickly in the groups I play with...

Do these other games have a VP bonus to the player that forced the resignation encoded in the rules, and rules about exactly how and when you can resign? Alternatively, are they two-player games? If so, yes.

I think you would find yourself short of opponents in my circles if you started berating people for resigning from such games.

But really, I think a point you are missing is that when resignation is allowed in TTA, as it should be, it doesn't happen. It is rare that a mere 7 culture for a political action and MA cost is worth it - a military player with a hand full of cards will usually find something better to play or someone else to attack. In your variant, however, they can and will loot the loser every turn for as much as they can get.
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Ali Cali
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Kelanen wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
Quick fix for the resignation rule: Ban it! (by far the most common response in my 1500+ games)

I never play with anyone that would resign, or replay with anyone that does.

That's weird. Do you rely on military wins a lot, by any chance?


No, quite the opposite. But resigning from any game is bad sportsmanship in my book.

Face to face players feel the same, and I usually put 'No resignations' in game titles online.

I asked this elsewhere, but I’ll ask here, too. Do you feel that the resign rules is a form of rage-quit, where the only reason is for those behind to just stop playing?
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Jonathan Challis
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aliallison wrote:

I asked this elsewhere, but I’ll ask here, too. Do you feel that the resign rules is a form of rage-quit, where the only reason is for those behind to just stop playing?


Yes I do.

To answer earlier points - I agree that this ruleset explicitly allows resignation. I can't fault anyone for playing RAW, but I won't play with you. Thankfully, IRL, I have only ever come across one player who thought using that rule was okay - we never played TTA with him again. Online the the opinion seems more mixed, but not IRL, at least in my experience.

Personally, I don't see this as any different to me refusing to play co-ops, or light games. Great for those that like them, but I don't, so I'd rather not play, than play a game I dislike. I feel the same way about playing TTA with the resignation rule in force.
 
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