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Subject: Kickstarter Edition includes ... rss

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Curt Carpenter
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ParisPink wrote:
curtc wrote:
ParisPink wrote:
I do not doubt that they will sell it from their webstore, I do doubt it will reach mass retail distribution.

Why? Every previous Lacerda game has had broad retail distribution. Why wouldn't this one?


I don't see EP reaching as broad distribution as his past titles. Currently, only Boardgamebliss and The Game Steward (that I have found) have it up for pre-order, with it being so close to 'retail release' I'm surprised other stores do not have pre-orders up as well if they are also getting copies.

From a thread in EP forums I heard that EGG announced that retail EP won't hit until a few months after KS ships. So we'll have to wait and see, but I'd take bets on EP hitting standard OLGS. The only I can imagine a successful game not going to retail is if that's a key promise in the KS (e.g. Chip Theory Games games). So sure, I imagine those waiting for retail OM might have to wait a few months after KS backers get it for the same reason (don't piss off retailers who backed it).

ParisPink wrote:
EGG is a small company and at the price that Lacerda games are, I think they are now starting to cut out the "middle man" and are starting to do their own sales directly through KS, their web store and through retailers only if they back the KS.

They publish 10 games in the top 300. I wouldn't consider that small. Other than your prediction, I see no reason to believe things will be different this go-round.
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Ken
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This is a very interesting thread...

After reading the comments and doing my own investigating, here's what we know.

First, and foremost, the retail price for the base game vs. Kickstarter Edition:
Eagle_Gryphon Games wrote:
The MSRP for On Mars is $120. The KS Upgrade kit will have an MSRP of $10.


Then, when reading the Our Pledge to Backers on the Kickstarter page, this is the third bullet point:
In other words, we pledge to do our best, within reason, to insure that you will be among the very first owners of this game and that you will have purchased this game at a price significantly less than you will be able to buy this game for at least the first 90 days after it is released to the public.

I interpret this as meaning you will not be able to purchase On Mars for at least 90 days from a non-backing retail store after the last Kickstarter shipment is made, for less than your pledge amount (minimum $89). But, after 90 days, it is possible someone will have a lower advertised price.

Also according to the Kickstarter page, any retailers that backed On Mars will receive their copies either around the same time as consumers, or 90 days after consumers receive their copies. But, it also says retailers will receive their copies 90 days before regular retail distribution:

Under the $5 Retailers Only pledge - Pre-ordering guarantees you'll receive your copies well in advance (likely 90 days or more) of the official retail release date! This offer is only available to Brick & Mortar retail stores! Proof of status will be required.

Assuming this will see a regular retail release, the non-Kickstarter version of On Mars will retail for $120 while the Kickstarter version will retail for $130.

Looking back at the Lisboa Kickstarter campaign, the MSRP was set at $100 for the non-Kickstarter edition and the Kickstarter version has an MSRP of $130. Many OLGS sell the non-Kickstarter version of Lisboa ($100 MSRP) for $70 (30% off). The Deluxe version was $110 (15.4% off the $130 MSRP).

Going by the previous sale prices and discounts, we can expect the OLGS sell price for On Mars to be between $84 and $96 (20% - 30% discount) for the non-Kickstarter edition, and $110 for the Kickstarter edition.

For US backers, the cost of shipping is $17 for one game. This brings the cost of backing On Mars to $106. So, for the sake or argument, by backing the Kickstarter now, you would potentially save $4 on the Kickstarter edition, but could potentially save up to $22 by waiting and buying this from an OLGS if the standard version is sold online at a 30% discount at a later date.

The question still remains, will this hit regular retail brick and mortar stores and OLGS?
Eagle_Gryphon Games wrote:
You won't see On Mars in distribution any time soon, if ever.


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The Game Steward
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Just to let people know, EGG has implemented some changes, including a MAPP (Minimum Advertised Price Policy) at 10% off MSRP for many (not all) of their games. A quick survey today of some of the other major online game stores shows that many of them display lower prices, but they are all listed 'out of stock' for the affected games. This includes Lisboa, Vinhos, Gallerist, etc. I believe this affects both "retail" and "KS" or "Deluxe" editions of these games.

we have to adhere to this policy as well. So a game with an MSRP of $120 (e.g. Gallerist KS Edition) may only be listed as low as $107.99 once it hits distribution. Moreover, in order for us to back EGG Kickstarter campaigns, we agree to list the games at full MSRP (e.g. $120 for the above example) for the 90 day period between when we receive the games and the formal "street date" when the games go into distribution. The 10% discount becomes effective after that point.

Just something to consider when trying to decide whether the back On Mars (or any EGG title) on Kickstarter or wait for retail.



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GreenLaborMike wrote:
Just to let people know, EGG has implemented some changes, including a MAPP (Minimum Advertised Price Policy) at 10% off MSRP for many (not all) of their games. A quick survey today of some of the other major online game stores shows that many of them display lower prices, but they are all listed 'out of stock' for the affected games. This includes Lisboa, Vinhos, Gallerist, etc. I believe this affects both "retail" and "KS" or "Deluxe" editions of these games.

we have to adhere to this policy as well. So a game with an MSRP of $120 (e.g. Gallerist KS Edition) may only be listed as low as $107.99 once it hits distribution. Moreover, in order for us to back EGG Kickstarter campaigns, we agree to list the games at full MSRP (e.g. $120 for the above example) for the 90 day period between when we receive the games and the formal "street date" when the games go into distribution. The 10% discount becomes effective after that point.

Just something to consider when trying to decide whether the back On Mars (or any EGG title) on Kickstarter or wait for retail.



When this thread popped up, I went looking and all of Lacerda's games are OOS at online retailers that I use/could find online. Boardgamebliss has The Gallerist as a 'pre-order' but I wonder since they backed Escape Plan, they added it in for them to ship some of The Gallerist as well, as it's one of Vital's best selling titles.

Thanks for the insight. I had noticed a change and thought that perhaps some things had changed since Lacerda's earlier games.
 
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jeremyslayton wrote:
GreenLaborMike wrote:
Just to let people know, EGG has implemented some changes, including a MAPP (Minimum Advertised Price Policy) at 10% off MSRP for many (not all) of their games. A quick survey today of some of the other major online game stores shows that many of them display lower prices, but they are all listed 'out of stock' for the affected games. This includes Lisboa, Vinhos, Gallerist, etc. I believe this affects both "retail" and "KS" or "Deluxe" editions of these games.

we have to adhere to this policy as well. So a game with an MSRP of $120 (e.g. Gallerist KS Edition) may only be listed as low as $107.99 once it hits distribution. Moreover, in order for us to back EGG Kickstarter campaigns, we agree to list the games at full MSRP (e.g. $120 for the above example) for the 90 day period between when we receive the games and the formal "street date" when the games go into distribution. The 10% discount becomes effective after that point.

Just something to consider when trying to decide whether the back On Mars (or any EGG title) on Kickstarter or wait for retail.



Thank you for taking the time for the update! I too wonder what Escape Plan will end up selling at.

Of course, a MAPP only restricts the advertised price. Online retailers can and still do sale games at deeper discounts than the MAPP just by marketing a game differently.


You are absolutely right that they could market the game without advertising the price, and then sell below the MAPP. I just wanted to point out that, up to now, most OLGS have stopped carrying the games altogether. We just placed an order for all the existing Lacerda titles, so we should have them in stock again in a week or so.
 
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Parisian Dreams
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If you check the KS coments for On Mars, Randall is addressing this.

Quote:
Randal (Eagle-Gryphon Games)Collaborator
about 2 hours ago

@Jeremy Slayton - Beginning with Escape Plan, these titles won't be entering distribution as the previous games had been. Thus, it won't be for sale in the same places.


Another person asked;

Quote:
Randal Do you mean to say beginning with Escape Plan, these games will not be available in online game stores like CSI, MM etc.,?

Randal (Eagle-Gryphon Games)Collaborator
about 2 hours ago

Correct.








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Jake Blomquist
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ParisPink wrote:
If you check the KS coments for On Mars, Randall is addressing this.

Quote:
Randal (Eagle-Gryphon Games)Collaborator
about 2 hours ago

@Jeremy Slayton - Beginning with Escape Plan, these titles won't be entering distribution as the previous games had been. Thus, it won't be for sale in the same places.


Another person asked;

Quote:
Randal Do you mean to say beginning with Escape Plan, these games will not be available in online game stores like CSI, MM etc.,?

Randal (Eagle-Gryphon Games)Collaborator
about 2 hours ago

Correct.










That's too bad. I guess I'll have to make due with the Vital games I already own then. Luckily they're all so good and so well designed that I'm more than happy to just play those over and over for a long time.
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Ken B
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Also posted by Randal at EGG:

The Gallerist, Vinhos Deluxe, Lisboa, Escape Plan, and On Mars will not be for sale on MM again.

I absolutely understand EGG is just trying to maximize their profits, and they have every right to do so. But this still makes me sad.
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Curt Carpenter
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If true, I'll be voting with my feet. I'm still taking a wait and see approach, because I just can't imagine why the game would not be available online and they wouldn't state that clearly in the campaign as a reason to back. Here's what they actually said, which strongly implies it will be available at retail, and likely cheaper at release + 90 days:
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I can understand why a publisher wouldn’t want their game sold at a constant discount of 30%! We never see anything like that in Europe, it’s usually 15-20% unless it’s a Christmas sale or something. Can’t be healthy for the market.
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Peter L
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is this just online stores? Or all brick-and-mortar stores in general as well?
 
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Pete Thane
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enigma0t2 wrote:
is this just online stores? Or all brick-and-mortar stores in general as well?


Just some of the online discounters I believe.

I dont think it is all about profit for them I also think they are trying to support the companies who they are in partnership as well as not annoying some Kickstarter backers who see, shortly after receiving their copies, that the price they paid has been undercut to some retailers.
 
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side question - confused with the cost of On Mars and Escape Plan - $229 with the cost of One Mars $89 + the Escape Plan KS price $79 it doesn't add up.

The Escape Plan price was taken directly from the KS page; so I suspect its the Retail price of Escape Plan plus the cost of all the KS extras added?

Thanks
 
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07711Eskimoe wrote:
side question - confused with the cost of On Mars and Escape Plan - $229 with the cost of One Mars $89 + the Escape Plan KS price $79 it doesn't add up.

The Escape Plan price was taken directly from the KS page; so I suspect its the Retail price of Escape Plan plus the cost of all the KS extras added?

Thanks


That's correct. The MSRP of Escape Plan with KS extras is now $139.99. Add $89 for On Mars, and it works out to about $229.
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Curt Carpenter
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jeremyslayton wrote:
One thing that I will reiterate here is that I get most frustrated when publishers decide to no longer use normal distribution channels and argue that it is for other reasons other than profit margins, i.e. for the customers, for the FLGS, etc. But, EGG seems to be upfront about why they are no longer using typical distribution channels. I completely respect such an approach and hope that they are successful.

1) I'm more interested in what companies do than the reasons they give for it. I can come to my own conclusions for how I feel about it. But certainly if there are any non-obvious reasons, understanding those may affect how I feel.
2) Virtually every company is trying to make money. Stating that as a reason isn't particularly enlightening.
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The Game Steward is correct. We have a MAPP agreement in place for these games. If retailers (both online and brick & mortar) are willing to agree to them, then we are happy to sell games to them. For those that aren't willing (typically because they tend to undercut other retailers) to agree to the MAPP agreement, we simply do not sell to them.

There isn't any charade to this. We aren't giving false reasons as to why we do so. We support retailers who back our projects. We support backers who back our projects. We have a pledge to backers that covers this (and was noted above).

Online retailers who aim to undercut prices of others may have a benefit to an end-consumer looking to save a few dollars or include the game in a free shipping bundle but it cripples the opportunity for these games to be made in the first place. There is not a huge profit margin on these titles as we want them to contain high quality components to compliment the high quality game designs from Vital. Due to this, we have to maintain some sense of consistency with our pricing or we just can't afford to produce the games in the first place.

Our KS backers receive a discout we are able to offer on these titles during in which the campaign that the project is funded. From there, the games will be sold at msrp for a period of AT LEAST 90 days after fulfillment is complete but likely longer. At that time, we will still not be offering the games at a greater discount.

Some are seeing the effects of this with Escape Plan as they expected the game to be offered at a discount. I've been completely transparent in the fact that these games will be available through retailers who back our KS campaigns and retailers who order from us and our partners afterwards but under the MAPP agreement.

My intent is to ensure that everyone has realistic expectations as I see a lot of misinformation flying about. If you are waiting for these games to appear at 40% off with free shipping at your favorite deep discount online retailer, you will be disappointed. If you want to receive the game at a discount, backing the project that funds that game is the best way. If you want to buy the game from retail, buying it from a retailer that backs the campaign is the best way.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
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Thanks for coming here and addressing our concerns. I have a question about this:

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
Online retailers who aim to undercut prices of others may have a benefit to an end-consumer looking to save a few dollars or include the game in a free shipping bundle but it cripples the opportunity for these games to be made in the first place. There is not a huge profit margin on these titles as we want them to contain high quality components to compliment the high quality game designs from Vital. Due to this, we have to maintain some sense of consistency with our pricing or we just can't afford to produce the games in the first place.

I've never understood the reasoning behind this. Don't you decide the price at which you're willing to sell your games to retailers? If so, then you've gotten your money regardless of the price at which the retailers sell your games. You don't get a percentage of the final sale price to end users, do you, so how does that affect your ability to make these games?

If you don't feel like you're making enough profit per copy sold, instead of a MAPP why not just charge retailers a higher price and let them still sell at whatever price they see fit? I fully support your need to make a profit to continue to do business, but I don't see how a MAPP accomplishes that.
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Ken B
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Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
Online retailers who aim to undercut prices of others may have a benefit to an end-consumer looking to save a few dollars or include the game in a free shipping bundle but it cripples the opportunity for these games to be made in the first place.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
I understand your other points, but this one baffles me.

Really? It cripples the opportunity for these games to be made if the OLGS allows them to be purchased abiding by your MAPP and bundled with others for free shipping?
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TooOld4Games2 wrote:
Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
Online retailers who aim to undercut prices of others may have a benefit to an end-consumer looking to save a few dollars or include the game in a free shipping bundle but it cripples the opportunity for these games to be made in the first place.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
I understand your other points, but this one baffles me.

Really? It cripples the opportunity for these games to be made if the OLGS allows them to be purchased abiding by your MAPP and bundled with others for free shipping?
surprise

I think Randall's point was that saving a few dollars and getting free shipping are benefits of OLGSes, but that the price undercutting in particular was what made it hard for EGG to make these games at the quality they need to be made while still making a profit.
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MentatYP wrote:

I think Randall's point was that saving a few dollars and getting free shipping are benefits of OLGSes, but that the price undercutting in particular was what made it hard for EGG to make these games at the quality they need to be made while still making a profit.

Ok, I can certainly understand that. I guess his wording in that particular sentence wasn't the greatest.

TBH, I really had no idea that OLGS selling games at a discount hurt game publishers. I know the concerns about hurting FLGS, and how that can lead to a lot of problems for the industry. But I didn't know it could directly hurt publishers.
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Curt Carpenter
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TooOld4Games2 wrote:
TBH, I really had no idea that OLGS selling games at a discount hurt game publishers. I know the concerns about hurting FLGS, and how that can lead to a lot of problems for the industry. But I didn't know it could directly hurt publishers.

I still don't. I've never heard it explained in a way that makes sense. Mayfair tried explaining it a while back when they implemented MAPP. Their games became more and more expensive relative to competition, and they went out of business last year. A lot of people like buying stuff online, and they like saving money. And they don't need a place to play or advice from someone at an FLGS. If a publisher wants to apply a MAPP, it's seems squarely aimed at propping up the FLGS industry, not boardgame production.
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One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.
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KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.

Not bothered then that they adhere to other MAPPs like Asmodee North America, CMON, etc.?
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MentatYP wrote:
KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.

Not bothered then that they adhere to other MAPPs like Asmodee North America, CMON, etc.?
I wonder why MM would adhere to those, but not to EGG's? (Rhetorical, since I don't think anyone here can answer that.)
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MentatYP wrote:
Don't you decide the price at which you're willing to sell your games to retailers? If so, then you've gotten your money regardless of the price at which the retailers sell your games. You don't get a percentage of the final sale price to end users, do you, so how does that affect your ability to make these games?
If online retailer A buys game A for price Y and sells it for Y+$2, they then set the expectation that the game should be able to be found for Y+$2 price. If other retailers are selling it for a higher price, they have customers complain that their prices are too high and stop buying games A, B, C, etc. This happens even if the online retailer only bought a handful of copies and have long sold out of them. So while the online retailer only made $20 total, they have hurt retail interest in the game overall. MAPP keeps the playing field level for retailers. It benefits the publisher as we are able to sell games to retailers.

TooOld4Games2 wrote:
Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
Online retailers who aim to undercut prices of others may have a benefit to an end-consumer looking to save a few dollars or include the game in a free shipping bundle but it cripples the opportunity for these games to be made in the first place.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
I understand your other points, but this one baffles me.

Really? It cripples the opportunity for these games to be made if the OLGS allows them to be purchased abiding by your MAPP and bundled with others for free shipping?
surprise
You are correct and my wording wasn't as specific as I intended. Free shipping is not an issue as any retailer can choose to handle this however they please. Deep discount e-tailers who undercut each other are. It isn't about maximizing profits but about protecting retailers who follow our MAPP agreement. Any retailer OLGS or FLGS who follows the MAPP is welcome to buy our games but when we sell a game into distribution and an OLGS discounts the game down to where they are only making $1-$3 per copy on a game, it hurts the retailers who are following our MAPP. In that instance, it doesn't make sense to continue to sell to them.
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