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Subject: Kickstarter Edition includes ... rss

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KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.
You are more than welcome to support them but you just won't be able to bur our Vital Lacerda games from them if they aren't agreeing to follow a MAPP agreement.
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TooOld4Games2 wrote:
MentatYP wrote:
KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.

Not bothered then that they adhere to other MAPPs like Asmodee North America, CMON, etc.?
I wonder why MM would adhere to those, but not to EGG's? (Rhetorical, since I don't think anyone here can answer that.)
My guess is that it has to do with volume. Larger publishers are set up to make less on each unit as they aim to sell more in volume. Online discount retailers profit in the same manner. Smaller publishers, such as us, do smaller print runs of titles so aren't aiming to sell in volume.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
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MentatYP wrote:
TooOld4Games2 wrote:
Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
Online retailers who aim to undercut prices of others may have a benefit to an end-consumer looking to save a few dollars or include the game in a free shipping bundle but it cripples the opportunity for these games to be made in the first place.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
I understand your other points, but this one baffles me.

Really? It cripples the opportunity for these games to be made if the OLGS allows them to be purchased abiding by your MAPP and bundled with others for free shipping?
surprise

I think Randall's point was that saving a few dollars and getting free shipping are benefits of OLGSes, but that the price undercutting in particular was what made it hard for EGG to make these games at the quality they need to be made while still making a profit.
Correct.
- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
 
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MentatYP wrote:
KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.

Not bothered then that they adhere to other MAPPs like Asmodee North America, CMON, etc.?


Oh, I’m sure there’s a reason. Do you think that Eagle Gryphon has given you the complete story?
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Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.
You are more than welcome to support them but you just won't be able to bur our Vital Lacerda games from them if they aren't agreeing to follow a MAPP agreement.


And I’m perfectly ok with that.
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Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
TooOld4Games2 wrote:
MentatYP wrote:
KingOfF00LS wrote:
One more reason to continue to support Miniature Market for refusing to agree to this MAPP policy. Good for them.

Not bothered then that they adhere to other MAPPs like Asmodee North America, CMON, etc.?
I wonder why MM would adhere to those, but not to EGG's? (Rhetorical, since I don't think anyone here can answer that.)
My guess is that it has to do with volume. Larger publishers are set up to make less on each unit as they aim to sell more in volume. Online discount retailers profit in the same manner. Smaller publishers, such as us, do smaller print runs of titles so aren't aiming to sell in volume.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games


It’s not about what you’re aiming. It’s about what you’re capable of. You simply cannot sell as many games, so you don’t print them. Your wording almost makes it sound as though you prefer to have a small number of games produced, and that’s simply not true. If you could sell as many as Asmodee then you would print that many.

Of course, I’m not implying in the least that there’s anything wrong with selling fewer units if that’s all the market will bear, I’m just saying lower numbers are definitely not your aim as your wording could be seen to imply.

My gut says EGG is so set on the MAPP not because of brick and mortar, but because EGG wants to be seen as a luxury brand, and a luxury brand commands a luxury price. It’s hard to be seen as luxury and demanding a luxury price when the Kickstarter campaigns continue to have people ask why they shouldn’t just wait for retail and get the game cheaper. Keeping the market price high helps eliminate people questioning why buy now. Using claimed brick and mortar stores needing assistance is a convenient scapegoat since they nearly always will market items at full retail price, giving the appearance of a luxury brand that you want.

Now, I actually don’t have a problem with EGG trying to position itself as a luxury brand. Not at all. Truth be told they do use some really nice components. I just don’t care for claimed altruism when ambition is clearly the motivating factor.

It’s interesting that in all the campaigns I’ve considered and all the designers and publishers I’ve interacted with, EGG is the only one that has ever really just rubbed me a little wrong with the feigned altruism. Even Petersen games didn’t really bother me too much in spite of their great arrogance because they never tried to pass it off as for the people. They were up front in that they’re going to do it their way, and that’s that. I can at least respect it, even if I don’t like their vision on something.
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EGG, can you please comment on this statement?

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
You won't see On Mars in distribution any time soon, if ever.


But you also state:

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
We have a MAPP agreement in place for these games. If retailers (both online and brick & mortar) are willing to agree to them, then we are happy to sell games to them.


Which seems to contradict the first statement.
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KingOfF00LS wrote:
It’s not about what you’re aiming. It’s about what you’re capable of. You simply cannot sell as many games, so you don’t print them. Your wording almost makes it sound as though you prefer to have a small number of games produced, and that’s simply not true. If you could sell as many as Asmodee then you would print that many.

Of course, I’m not implying in the least that there’s anything wrong with selling fewer units if that’s all the market will bear, I’m just saying lower numbers are definitely not your aim as your wording could be seen to imply.

My gut says EGG is so set on the MAPP not because of brick and mortar, but because EGG wants to be seen as a luxury brand, and a luxury brand commands a luxury price. It’s hard to be seen as luxury and demanding a luxury price when the Kickstarter campaigns continue to have people ask why they shouldn’t just wait for retail and get the game cheaper. Keeping the market price high helps eliminate people questioning why buy now. Using claimed brick and mortar stores needing assistance is a convenient scapegoat since they nearly always will market items at full retail price, giving the appearance of a luxury brand that you want.

Now, I actually don’t have a problem with EGG trying to position itself as a luxury brand. Not at all. Truth be told they do use some really nice components. I just don’t care for claimed altruism when ambition is clearly the motivating factor.

It’s interesting that in all the campaigns I’ve considered and all the designers and publishers I’ve interacted with, EGG is the only one that has ever really just rubbed me a little wrong with the feigned altruism. Even Petersen games didn’t really bother me too much in spite of their great arrogance because they never tried to pass it off as for the people. They were up front in that they’re going to do it their way, and that’s that. I can at least respect it, even if I don’t like their vision on something.
I'm sorry that EGG has given you that impression in the past but the company has evolved a great bit over the last few years as we have slimmed down our staff and switched gears a bit. It also isn't as cut and dry as 'If you could sell as many as Asmodee then you would print that many.' For starters, heavier euro games have a smaller market than tabletop games in general. While we want our games to be as best as they can be, our focus is not on volume as it is on quality. That may sound like a pitch but we are small company with only a handful of employees. Giant print runs bring giant workloads. As someone who currently works more than I do anything else in life (including sleep), I have no ambition of adding to that workload. I simply want to help make great games available for people to play them. If you wish to try to dream up some alternate theory, that is the freedom of choice. As a gamer who appreciates when a publisher is transparent about things, I'm trying to give that back just the same.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
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g54pcys wrote:
EGG, can you please comment on this statement?

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
You won't see On Mars in distribution any time soon, if ever.


But you also state:

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
We have a MAPP agreement in place for these games. If retailers (both online and brick & mortar) are willing to agree to them, then we are happy to sell games to them.


Which seems to contradict the first statement.
Distribution is when a distributor buys games from a publisher and then sells them to retailers. In the U.S., we have not found a middle ground between us any distributor so I can say that we do not have any current agreements or plans with distribution.

Retailers often buy our products directly from us. Both statements are valid.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games
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Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
KingOfF00LS wrote:
It’s not about what you’re aiming. It’s about what you’re capable of. You simply cannot sell as many games, so you don’t print them. Your wording almost makes it sound as though you prefer to have a small number of games produced, and that’s simply not true. If you could sell as many as Asmodee then you would print that many.

Of course, I’m not implying in the least that there’s anything wrong with selling fewer units if that’s all the market will bear, I’m just saying lower numbers are definitely not your aim as your wording could be seen to imply.

My gut says EGG is so set on the MAPP not because of brick and mortar, but because EGG wants to be seen as a luxury brand, and a luxury brand commands a luxury price. It’s hard to be seen as luxury and demanding a luxury price when the Kickstarter campaigns continue to have people ask why they shouldn’t just wait for retail and get the game cheaper. Keeping the market price high helps eliminate people questioning why buy now. Using claimed brick and mortar stores needing assistance is a convenient scapegoat since they nearly always will market items at full retail price, giving the appearance of a luxury brand that you want.

Now, I actually don’t have a problem with EGG trying to position itself as a luxury brand. Not at all. Truth be told they do use some really nice components. I just don’t care for claimed altruism when ambition is clearly the motivating factor.

It’s interesting that in all the campaigns I’ve considered and all the designers and publishers I’ve interacted with, EGG is the only one that has ever really just rubbed me a little wrong with the feigned altruism. Even Petersen games didn’t really bother me too much in spite of their great arrogance because they never tried to pass it off as for the people. They were up front in that they’re going to do it their way, and that’s that. I can at least respect it, even if I don’t like their vision on something.
I'm sorry that EGG has given you that impression in the past but the company has evolved a great bit over the last few years as we have slimmed down our staff and switched gears a bit. It also isn't as cut and dry as 'If you could sell as many as Asmodee then you would print that many.' For starters, heavier euro games have a smaller market than tabletop games in general. While we want our games to be as best as they can be, our focus is not on volume as it is on quality. That may sound like a pitch but we are small company with only a handful of employees. Giant print runs bring giant workloads. As someone who currently works more than I do anything else in life (including sleep), I have no ambition of adding to that workload. I simply want to help make great games available for people to play them. If you wish to try to dream up some alternate theory, that is the freedom of choice. As a gamer who appreciates when a publisher is transparent about things, I'm trying to give that back just the same.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games


K
 
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Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
g54pcys wrote:
EGG, can you please comment on this statement?

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
You won't see On Mars in distribution any time soon, if ever.


But you also state:

Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:
We have a MAPP agreement in place for these games. If retailers (both online and brick & mortar) are willing to agree to them, then we are happy to sell games to them.


Which seems to contradict the first statement.
Distribution is when a distributor buys games from a publisher and then sells them to retailers. In the U.S., we have not found a middle ground between us any distributor so I can say that we do not have any current agreements or plans with distribution.

Retailers often buy our products directly from us. Both statements are valid.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games


Just to confirm, we have always purchased EGG games directly from EGG, and will continue to do so for the indefinite future.
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Eagle_Gryphon_Games wrote:


My intent is to ensure that everyone has realistic expectations as I see a lot of misinformation flying about. If you are waiting for these games to appear at 40% off with free shipping at your favorite deep discount online retailer, you will be disappointed. If you want to receive the game at a discount, backing the project that funds that game is the best way. If you want to buy the game from retail, buying it from a retailer that backs the campaign is the best way.

- Randal, Eagle-Gryphon Games


I came into this thread on a lark, trying to determine whether I should pay what I saw as inflated prices for The Gallerist off Eagle Gryphon's site OR wait for a reprint to become more widely available. After realizing official commentary existed, I strapped in, and was determined to see my opinion lowered of Eagle Gryphon... but quite the opposite has happened.

With an emphasis on this post, I've decided to pull the trigger on my purchase at the "inflated" cost in large part because of the perspective shift Randal lent with his commentary. Kudos, and well said.

Good business practices should be rewarded (and "good" needn't always mean "most cost effective for the consumer," especially if those cost effective solutions are actually toxic to the continuation of the industry).

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curtc wrote:
TooOld4Games2 wrote:
TBH, I really had no idea that OLGS selling games at a discount hurt game publishers. I know the concerns about hurting FLGS, and how that can lead to a lot of problems for the industry. But I didn't know it could directly hurt publishers.

I still don't. I've never heard it explained in a way that makes sense. Mayfair tried explaining it a while back when they implemented MAPP. Their games became more and more expensive relative to competition, and they went out of business last year. A lot of people like buying stuff online, and they like saving money. And they don't need a place to play or advice from someone at an FLGS. If a publisher wants to apply a MAPP, it's seems squarely aimed at propping up the FLGS industry, not boardgame production.


This is me. I like to get as much mileage out of my penny as I can.

Board games are about the only thing I buy new, and only if I have to (can't find used copies to buy or trade).

 
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Getting back to the OP, I've updated it to reflect the final SGs.

Not fantastic, but IMO absolutely worth the currently planned $10 MSRP. I can't see why anyone would pay $120 MSRP for the retail edition, and not pay another $10 for these.
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