Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
7 Posts

Black Rose Wars» Forums » Variants

Subject: Helping Room Instability tactic and a few retouches in general rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Francesco Aegis
Italy
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I love BRW, and I mean it, but I also think it could be even better.

I always thought that the averange 4-6 turns lenght of the game is too short to enjoy the game at is best:

1) Makes the deck-building part of the game almost insignificant, rewarding a "just pick whatever benefits you RIGHT NOW" strategy than trying to search for spell combos and deck optimization.

2) Makes the 1° moon materials (Quests and Events) almost irrilevant, sice usually the 1° moon finishes during the very first turn due to the leading player hitting 6 points.

3) Makes long term strategies not work well enough... Altars manipulation and Rooms destruction in general seem to be too slow versus more direct strategies like quests and kills.

I will try a variant like this:

2° moon 10 points
3° moon 25 points
end game 45 points

This should make the game last 1-2 extra turns, just enough to get the rewards for long term strategies, without making them obliterate short term strategies in the long run.


Also, in my experience (and reading around also in the ones of many other people), trying to win by making rooms instable doesn't seem to work well.
I think the main reasons are this:

1) Making a room instable only gives you point once (endgame), while killing and doing quests gives you points twice (immediatly and endgame).

2) Destroying a room alone, without other people help, is quite slow, and people haven't reasons to help since there is no "ladder" like with kills, but just the player with most cubes gets something.
Also, often you finish the game with a few rooms with some cubes but not yet destroyed, and those give you zero points for the effort.


My ideas to address this problems would be one or more of the following optional rules:


1) You get the points for the destroyed rooms immediatly, and at the end of the game you do a ladder like the quest's one, with the player who destroyed most rooms taking 5 points, the second 2 and everyone else who destroyed at least a room taking 1 point.

2) At the end of the game, you score all the undestroyed rooms. If there is a clear majority in the damage cubes in a room, that player gets half the points of the room (rounded up). If there is no majority (draw) or if there are no cubes at all, the Black Rose scores half the points for that room.
That would not only help by giving some points for unfinished rooms, but also give other players a good reason to help spreading damage cubes (both to get a few extra points and to limit the Black Rose), and doing so they would help you destroying rooms faster during the game (since a few cubes would be put by other players).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Calcagno
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Francesco, interesting variant.
I may need to look into it to see how it plays. One observation:

You are increasing the game from 30 to 45 points (to develop strategies and deck building...) understood.
But then, you are giving intermediate points for room-cube destruction, so those intermediate points will start to shorten the game again. (If a mage has 15 instability points during the game and reaches the normal 30 points, that turns into the 45 required to end the game, possibly at about the same effective length.

So, my suggestion is for you to consider how many room destruction points a "normal" mage will accumulate, and be sure your increased game of 45 points is enough to keep the game going as far as you wanted...

Grazie,
-Cicco
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Wykoff
Australia
Sydney
flag msg tools
mb
I think having a room end score akin to quests and kill tokens is a fine idea but not sure the other two need to be implemented. You still get the PP at the end of the game for destroyed rooms anyway but also, neither of the other victory conditions provide points for half-way completing them (i.e. you don't get PP for having 6 cubes on a player at the end game).

I will be curious to see how the game plays with 7-9 turns instead of the average 4-6 though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zoltán Dudás
Hungary
flag msg tools
the22dragons wrote:
trying to win by making rooms instable doesn't seem to work well.
I think the main reasons are this:

1) Making a room instable only gives you point once (endgame), while killing and doing quests gives you points twice (immediatly and endgame).

2) Destroying a room alone, without other people help, is quite slow, and people haven't reasons to help since there is no "ladder" like with kills, but just the player with most cubes gets something.
Also, often you finish the game with a few rooms with some cubes but not yet destroyed, and those give you zero points for the effort.


1 - I dont really understand the reasoning behind this. Endgame scoring doesnt really give that much points. Pretty much everyone will have a quest done and a trophy. So everyone is a participant for 1 point. First places give 6 and 4 points. So looking at point difference thats a 1-5 points max. Thats a single quest. Or 1 big room or 2 smaller rooms.
If the endgame points are this close to each other, then there is nothing to fix really. A lucky/unlucky quest draw causes this much difference.

2 - Rooms will take damage no matter what. Lots of spells have instability. So everyone will take part anyway. Just adjust your positing to fill them in/tip the majority to you.
And if you want to focus on it, then go transmutation. Once altars are out you place ~3 cubes easy with each spell. 2 spells break most of the rooms. I would hardly call this slow.

Of course still take part in other activities. You wont win by focusing only on rooms. But neither will be focusing only on quest or only on kills etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zak Bennett
msg tools
I wouldn't mind the game lasting another 1-2 turns as I love the game too and when it gets to the table I don't want the game to end. But I would not adjust the rules, myself, just yet to help with room instability. The last game I played, I went in with the mindset that I was going to see how many rooms I could cause to be unstable to see how that strategy would play out. I knew it would be more powerful the more players that you have but we only had 2 players for this one (so I did not assume that it would work out well). I was very wrong. I ended with 5 room tokens and having completed the most quests. I did not get any points from defeating my opponent because that was not in my strategy. I found myself destabilizing rooms in one turn once I decided which room to go for. The game ended with PP at 48: me, 28: Black Rose, 25: my opponent.
My strategy was Divination heavy with a mix of necromancy for defense. I would easily sub out the necromancy next time I want to attempt this strategy. My draws there did not seem to help much. Divination and Transmutation are the way to go I think for instability. Out of the 12 Divination spells I think 10 of them cause instability.
I'm not going to say don't change the rules to help instability but I would caution that it is likely to make any strategy using primarily Divination to be completely broken.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Wykoff
Australia
Sydney
flag msg tools
mb
Chimeralegend wrote:
I wouldn't mind the game lasting another 1-2 turns as I love the game too and when it gets to the table I don't want the game to end. But I would not adjust the rules, myself, just yet to help with room instability. The last game I played, I went in with the mindset that I was going to see how many rooms I could cause to be unstable to see how that strategy would play out. I knew it would be more powerful the more players that you have but we only had 2 players for this one (so I did not assume that it would work out well). I was very wrong. I ended with 5 room tokens and having completed the most quests. I did not get any points from defeating my opponent because that was not in my strategy. I found myself destabilizing rooms in one turn once I decided which room to go for. The game ended with PP at 48: me, 28: Black Rose, 25: my opponent.
My strategy was Divination heavy with a mix of necromancy for defense. I would easily sub out the necromancy next time I want to attempt this strategy. My draws there did not seem to help much. Divination and Transmutation are the way to go I think for instability. Out of the 12 Divination spells I think 10 of them cause instability.
I'm not going to say don't change the rules to help instability but I would caution that it is likely to make any strategy using primarily Divination to be completely broken.


I would be curious to see what Myth does as well as it seems to have quite a bit of instability causing. I certainly know in my games with Divination that I have not had trouble popping a few rooms here and there simply through placement rather than a focus on it like my Transmutation opponent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Leisner
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the22dragons wrote:


2) Makes the 1° moon materials (Quests and Events) almost irrilevant, sice usually the 1° moon finishes during the very first turn due to the leading player hitting 6 points.



I have only played the game once, "solo" with 3 characters, trying to learn the rules. In that one play through one of the mages raced to 6 points in the first round (or turn....the game's definitions are flipped in my mind).

Another potential house rule is requiring x amount of players to pass each threshold before moving to the next moon phase.

For example:
All the below ignore the Black Rose marker for moon phase
2 player game = 1 player
3 player game = 2 players
4 player game = 2 or 3 players

Or

2 player game = Standard rules (one player or Black Rose)
3 player game = 1 player and Black Rose
4 player game = 2 players and Black Rose

I have no idea how well these might work in reality, still learning the game. Once again, just a potential alternate rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.