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Subject: Whose presence does Unrelenting Growth target from? rss

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Leif Gaebler
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I had assumed that Unrelenting Growth targets from the caster's presence rather than the target's presence because Gift of Proliferation specifies the target's presence so I inferred that the general rule is the opposite.

However, Blazing Renewal specifies your presence, so it's impossible to infer a default. I also couldn't find a relevant FAQ for Unrelenting Growth.
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Aaron Bredon
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Lorkenpeist wrote:
I had assumed that Unrelenting Growth targets from the caster's presence rather than the target's presence because Gift of Proliferation specifies the target's presence so I inferred that the general rule is the opposite.

However, Blazing Renewal specifies your presence, so it's impossible to infer a default. I also couldn't find a relevant FAQ for Unrelenting Growth.


Untelenting Growth targets a spirit and they place presence, so the placement range would be from their presence.

Gift of proliferation has the extra room to include the qualifier, Unrelenting Growth does not.
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Dan Long
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https://sick.oberien.de/?query=unrelenting

Unrelenting Growth
Target: Any Spirit

Description: Target Spirit adds 2 Presence and 1 Wilds to a land at 1 Range. -If you have- 3 Sun, 3 Plant: In that land, add 1 additional Wilds and remove 1 Blight. Target Spirit gains a Power Card.


***

There is no range restriction on targeting "any spirit".

The target spirit places a presence at range 1 from their existing presence by default.


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Brian Blankstein
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The wording is ambiguous. I'm inclined to play it as range from the target's presence, but I don't believe there's a strong precedent that applies here.
 
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Ted Vessenes
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I'm pretty sure it's range 1 from the presence of whichever spirit you target. If it were from the spirit playing the power card, it would be worded like Blazing Renewal.
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Dan Long
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grysqrl wrote:
The wording is ambiguous. I'm inclined to play it as range from the target's presence, but I don't believe there's a strong precedent that applies here.


Range for power effects is "from the 'casting' spirit's presence" unless there is direction to the contrary. This is reinforced by the iconography- presence icon (one or two presence), range arrow, range number.

Range for placing presence uses the same iconography. It's always in terms of range from existing presence, except when there is language to the contrary (in a land with Beasts, in a land with Dahan, in any Ocean).



Unrelenting Growth does not have a range restriction on the power itself; range is "any spirit". "Target Spirit adds 2 Presence and 1 Wilds to a land at 1 Range." implies at one range from the target's existing presence, since their is no verbiage to the contrary.


Blazing Renewal specifies the target spirit places presence within two of the 'casting' spirit, rather than within two of the target spirit's existing presence.

Just my .02

Dan



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Leif Gaebler
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tedv wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's range 1 from the presence of whichever spirit you target. If it were from the spirit playing the power card, it would be worded like Blazing Renewal.


That's exactly why I'm confused though, because the opposite argument can be made with Gift of Proliferation as an example.
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Aaron Bredon
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Lorkenpeist wrote:
tedv wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's range 1 from the presence of whichever spirit you target. If it were from the spirit playing the power card, it would be worded like Blazing Renewal.


That's exactly why I'm confused though, because the opposite argument can be made with Gift of Proliferation as an example.


That's why you take the default of the standard way of placing presence. The spirit placing presence does it at a range from their existing presence.

 
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R. Eric Reuss
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"Target" is a formal term - Unrelenting Growth targets a Spirit, not any lands.

Rather, it measures range for one of its effects, doing so from the Target Spirit's Presence because it's part of an instruction starting "Target Spirit (does stuff)..." and when Spirits care about range by default they do so from their Presence. It would be much clearer/better if it specified "of their (presence)", though.
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Leif Gaebler
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Great, thanks! Follow up question: whose range boost would apply, and is that answer different for Blazing Renewal?
 
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Praetor Kamahl
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I'd be tempted to say no range boost would apply, as those only seem to apply to the actual range box on powers, but I'll shut up and see how my gut instinct compares to the designer's answer.

Reasoning: Never thought about increased range making Gift of Proliferation or Serpent Wakes in Power have longer range.
 
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Leif Gaebler
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PKamahl wrote:
I'd be tempted to say no range boost would apply, as those only seem to apply to the actual range box on powers, but I'll shut up and see how my gut instinct compares to the designer's answer.

Reasoning: Never thought about increased range making Gift of Proliferation or Serpent Wakes in Power have longer range.


This FAQ indicates that range boosts can also affect the arrows in the text of a power. It's just not clear whose range boost applies in this case or Gift of Proliferation.
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Dylan Thurston
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It's still the power of the spirit playing the card, I would say it's still their range boost.
 
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Leif Gaebler
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dthurston wrote:
It's still the power of the spirit playing the card, I would say it's still their range boost.


That's what I would think too, but I thought the same thing about whose presence the range is measured from and that was wrong.
 
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Leif Gaebler
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Thinking further on this, I think some of the source of confusion comes from previous discussions of BoDaN. Insatiable Hunger of the Swarm says that each beasts does 2 damage, but since it's BoDaN's power the damage is actually caused by BoDaN, not the beasts, so it still causes fear and/or pushing instead of actual damage. I assumed it was the same for powers that let another spirit add presence: even though it says the other spirit adds presence, it's still your power so you are the actual source of the effect (and thus your presence is the origin of the range).
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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dthurston wrote:
It's still the power of the spirit playing the card, I would say it's still their range boost.

That's plausible, but I think there's also a colorable argument that it should be neither.

Reaching Grasp says: "Target Spirit gets +2 range with all their powers."

Eric says that Unrelenting Growth counts range from the the target spirit's presence because it's part of an instruction for the target spirit to do stuff. So if the range was increased, the target spirit is seemingly the one "getting" the increased range. Reaching Grasp on the casting spirit only allows the casting spirit to get increased range.

But Reaching Grasp on the target spirit also doesn't help, because the power doesn't belong to the casting spirit.

(Unless you played Unrelenting Growth on yourself, of course, in which case Reaching Grasp would presumably apply.)
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Leif Gaebler
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Antistone wrote:
dthurston wrote:
It's still the power of the spirit playing the card, I would say it's still their range boost.

That's plausible, but I think there's also a colorable argument that it should be neither.

Reaching Grasp says: "Target Spirit gets +2 range with all their powers."

Eric says that Unrelenting Growth counts range from the the target spirit's presence because it's part of an instruction for the target spirit to do stuff. So if the range was increased, the target spirit is seemingly the one "getting" the increased range. Reaching Grasp on the casting spirit only allows the casting spirit to get increased range.

But Reaching Grasp on the target spirit also doesn't help, because the power doesn't belong to the casting spirit.

(Unless you played Unrelenting Growth on yourself, of course, in which case Reaching Grasp would presumably apply.)


Great point, and I agree that as worded it is impossible for the target to use the boost from Reaching Grasp (unless self targeting) because it doesn't own the presence placing power. However, the Kickstarter preview of Finder's spirit panel has a presence slot that says +1 range on everything, not specifically your powers. Can that boost apply if Finder is the target?
 
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David M
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Antistone wrote:
dthurston wrote:
It's still the power of the spirit playing the card, I would say it's still their range boost.

Eric says that Unrelenting Growth counts range from the the target spirit's presence because it's part of an instruction for the target spirit to do stuff. So if the range was increased, the target spirit is seemingly the one "getting" the increased range. Reaching Grasp on the casting spirit only allows the casting spirit to get increased range.


I would interpret that while the target spirit is doing things, the action and the power still belong to casting spirit, so modifications to the reach of the casting spirit's powers/actions apply.

Sort of like reaching grasp modifies the range of the placement before the casting spirit passes it as an instruction to the target.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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I'm sorry, I should have been more definitive, since I am confident about the range-boosting part.

The power is still being executed by the spirit that played a power card, and it's still modifications from that spirit that are relevant, whether it's range boosts (anywhere on the card), modifications to damage (as in Flame's Fury), different ways damage works (BoDaN), etc.
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