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Subject: OS4 is Here! rss

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Alex Johnson
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/petersengames/cthulhu-w...
 
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Stephen Slotten
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Still haven't gotten OS3 yet!
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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Dont worry, we didnt get OS4 yet either
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Bob Horton
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*heaviest breathing*
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darksurtur
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This is a disappointing campaign. Bordering on insulting.

Launching before Onslaught 3 is fulfilled is already pretty aggressive. But it definitely should have been delayed given MORE God's War delays.

To add to that, there is still no information on what is being reprinted?

It's really pushing the edge here for prior Petersen backers.
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BG.EXE
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I don’t have any Cthulhu Wars stuff and I was hoping there would be a lot more pledge levels.
 
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Bob Horton
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darksurtur wrote:
This is a disappointing campaign. Bordering on insulting.

Launching before Onslaught 3 is fulfilled is already pretty aggressive. But it definitely should have been delayed given MORE God's War delays.

To add to that, there is still no information on what is being reprinted?

It's really pushing the edge here for prior Petersen backers.

The shipping delays are out of PG's hands, and it's bad business to just sit on your hands while you wait for 3rd-parties to do what you've paid them for - life goes on.

Also the reason there's no info yet is because there is a survey for people to decide what gets reprinted - all that was only ever gonna be available in the Pledge Manager post-campaign - if it's an issue, chuck $1 in and then decide if/what you want later.

boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I don’t have any Cthulhu Wars stuff and I was hoping there would be a lot more pledge levels.

Alas, I don't think the intention was ever for this to be a "big" KS, hence the emphasis on reprints - people will all want different stuff, so those have to be add-ons rather than pledge levels
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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Lack of all in pledge is a dissapointment however
 
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Mat
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I don’t have any Cthulhu Wars stuff and I was hoping there would be a lot more pledge levels.


Hopefully they'll announce some of the add-ons that have already passed the threshold on the survey so people know what the PM will allow. Otherwise, this is a pretty weird Kickstarter.

They're trying to limit the amount they have to pay to Kickstarter by making the PM the main fund generator (which is a good idea). The big problem is that it looks like they're keeping the possible add-ons under wraps (to keep people from adding them to their pledge on Kickstarter) but it's upsetting the people (particularly the newer players) who are essentially being locked into a specific pledge without knowing what other (possibly essential) expansions will be available.
 
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Scott Miller
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I have my OS3 pledge and have played it already and feel comfortable pledging again for this campaign.

However, this campaign is only 14 days long and a good amount of OS3 core game backers haven't and will not have had a chance to play the game even once before needing to decide whether or not to back an expansion campaign for the game. Not having a low cost upgrade-able pledge level seems a bit short sighted.

For their sake, $1 pledges should be able to add everything in the pledge manager IMO.
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Mat
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Avtomatik wrote:
Lack of all in pledge is a dissapointment however


They've been saying for a while now that they wouldn't be reprinting everything (some of their SKUs aren't profitable), so having an a all-in would be difficult. Particularly because they don't know everything they plan to reprint.
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BG.EXE
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Yeah I knew there wouldn’t be anything like an all in, but was sort of hoping for a bundle of some sort. Maybe the PM prices will be lower than I’m expecting. I just expect grabbing a bunch of piecemeal items to really expensive (even for Cthulhu Wars).
 
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darksurtur
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HortonHearsAWho wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
This is a disappointing campaign. Bordering on insulting.

Launching before Onslaught 3 is fulfilled is already pretty aggressive. But it definitely should have been delayed given MORE God's War delays.

To add to that, there is still no information on what is being reprinted?

It's really pushing the edge here for prior Petersen backers.

The shipping delays are out of PG's hands, and it's bad business to just sit on your hands while you wait for 3rd-parties to do what you've paid them for - life goes on.

Also the reason there's no info yet is because there is a survey for people to decide what gets reprinted - all that was only ever gonna be available in the Pledge Manager post-campaign - if it's an issue, chuck $1 in and then decide if/what you want later.


I don't care about the details of their subcontracting arrangements. I do know they are responsible for getting products to the people who backed them and it's pretty crass to ask those folks for even more money before that is completed.

They didn't have to "sit on [their] hands." They could have, I don't know, completed the survey for reprints BEFORE launching the campaign, and spent time managing their shipping contracts. You know, their job.
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Bob Horton
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darksurtur wrote:
I don't care about the details of their subcontracting arrangements. I do know they are responsible for getting products to the people who backed them and it's pretty crass to ask those folks for even more money before that is completed.

They didn't have to "sit on [their] hands." They could have, I don't know, completed the survey for reprints BEFORE launching the campaign, and spent time managing their shipping contracts. You know, their job.

I think that's a pretty entitled stance tbh. As far as PG is concerned they've done their part - they're not a shipping company - that's how these things work. As far as PG is concerned, OS3 is fulfilled, and they're spending their time taking crap from people who seem to think there's something they can do about it. They're a small family business handling multiple million-dollar projects at once; from where I'm sat they're doing an amazing job, better than many I've seen
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Doug Buel
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darksurtur wrote:
spent time managing their shipping contracts

And what does that mean
 
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darksurtur
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HortonHearsAWho wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
I don't care about the details of their subcontracting arrangements. I do know they are responsible for getting products to the people who backed them and it's pretty crass to ask those folks for even more money before that is completed.

They didn't have to "sit on [their] hands." They could have, I don't know, completed the survey for reprints BEFORE launching the campaign, and spent time managing their shipping contracts. You know, their job.

I think that's a pretty entitled stance tbh. As far as PG is concerned they've done their part - they're not a shipping company - that's how these things work. As far as PG is concerned, OS3 is fulfilled, and they're spending their time taking crap from people who seem to think there's something they can do about it. They're a small family business handling multiple million-dollar projects at once; from where I'm sat they're doing an amazing job, better than many I've seen


Respectfully, I disagree with everything you say. Sure, they are not a shipping company, but they are a business that includes a shipping component. They chose the details of that subcontracting relationship, and it's part of their contractual relationship with their customer. If I sell something here on BGG, my responsibility doesn't end with going to the post office. I need to ensure my customer gets what they paid for. That's what the intermediaries and regulators generally expect. Your position would lead to the absurd result that Petersen could choose a shady fly-by-night shipper and then throw their hands up and say, " we did what we needed to, everything past this point isn't our problem." Just to highlight that point, they run their own pledge manager and a lot of the issues with shipping is a byproduct of a poor data transfer to the shipping warehouse. That's fully on Petersen.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to run multiple million dollar projects and still get to be a "small family business."
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Doug Buel
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darksurtur wrote:
I'm sorry, but you don't get to run multiple million dollar projects and still get to be a "small family business."

Uh, yeah you do, the definition of a small business being fewer than N employees where N is defined by the particular industry
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Trent Copp
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darksurtur, a preview of what is to come: Petersens will work hard to provide a product that'll be damn good and damn late. Those of us who've been kickstarting them for awhile learn to accept this. Every single time, somebody starts howling in the comments section that they aren't doing their job, that they're just keeping all our money and the pledge isn't coming, etc. It gets tiresome to hear.

If their being late with the deliveries is really that problematic, by all means withdraw your pledge. Or accept the inconvenience. Either way, the online ranting is tiresome.
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Doug Buel
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coppt2 wrote:
Every single time, somebody starts howling in the comments section that they aren't doing their job, that they're just keeping all our money and the pledge isn't coming, etc.

This usually involves some magical thinking about why aren't the Petersens making whomever do blah blah blah

I went in on this Kickstarter I would say, instantly
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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Without getting into validity of ur claims I'd greatly appreciate if this one thread could be free of OS3 is late! posts as they are derailing the subject topic.
I am sure there are at least half a dozen of os3 is late! threads so u could talk abou them there.

I for one didnt back os3 and really dont give a fuck are they late or not, but would like to hear peoples opinions on os4.
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darksurtur
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Avtomatik wrote:
Without getting into validity of ur claims I'd greatly appreciate if this one thread could be free of OS3 is late! posts as they are derailing the subject topic.
I am sure there are at least half a dozen of os3 is late! threads so u could talk abou them there.

I for one didnt back os3 and really dont give a fuck are they late or not, but would like to hear peoples opinions on os4.


Of course, no reason to think past performance might be relevant to assessing the current campaign.
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Arthur Petersen
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darksurtur wrote:
HortonHearsAWho wrote:
darksurtur wrote:
I don't care about the details of their subcontracting arrangements. I do know they are responsible for getting products to the people who backed them and it's pretty crass to ask those folks for even more money before that is completed.

They didn't have to "sit on [their] hands." They could have, I don't know, completed the survey for reprints BEFORE launching the campaign, and spent time managing their shipping contracts. You know, their job.

I think that's a pretty entitled stance tbh. As far as PG is concerned they've done their part - they're not a shipping company - that's how these things work. As far as PG is concerned, OS3 is fulfilled, and they're spending their time taking crap from people who seem to think there's something they can do about it. They're a small family business handling multiple million-dollar projects at once; from where I'm sat they're doing an amazing job, better than many I've seen


Respectfully, I disagree with everything you say. Sure, they are not a shipping company, but they are a business that includes a shipping component. They chose the details of that subcontracting relationship, and it's part of their contractual relationship with their customer. If I sell something here on BGG, my responsibility doesn't end with going to the post office. I need to ensure my customer gets what they paid for. That's what the intermediaries and regulators generally expect. Your position would lead to the absurd result that Petersen could choose a shady fly-by-night shipper and then throw their hands up and say, " we did what we needed to, everything past this point isn't our problem." Just to highlight that point, they run their own pledge manager and a lot of the issues with shipping is a byproduct of a poor data transfer to the shipping warehouse. That's fully on Petersen.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to run multiple million dollar projects and still get to be a "small family business."


Some of what you say is true, but there are some missing things in your perspective, and some things that are simply inaccurate.

First, and probably least: None of the shipping issues have anything to do with a "poor data transfer" to the shipping warehouse. The data provided to our shippers was always in the exact format required, and provided a very long time ago - that has nothing to do with anything, and I'm not really sure where this comment comes from. Our shippers have very recently gotten a glitch making the last 8% or so of backers' orders be frozen. But we are very frustrated because all of these backers should have gotten their stuff shipped weeks ago, which would have been before the "glitch" occurred. Needless to say, we are not very happy with our shippers at the moment.

You are 100% correct that our relationship with our customers and backers does not "end" as soon as we hand off the fulfillment/order data to our shipping company. But characterizing the situation as that we have done this in any way is very inaccurate. On the contrary, we have been working with our shippers weekly to understand what's going on, and then we've been posting regular updates about the shipping situation - There have been 12 updates between March 12 and today (an average of exactly 2 per week, since March 12 was a Tuesday six weeks ago). All 12 of those updates were either wholly about shipping, or mostly about shipping. We aren't throwing up our hands and saying "it's out of our hands". We had a very long discussion on Friday over whether we should push back the launch of the Final Onslaught, but decided against it largely because we had no guarantee from our shippers that things would be done by the end of this week anyway (though we hope it to be the case). And we cannot change our overall schedule for the year - if we push back Daemon Sultan too much, we risk affecting our Summer and Fall KS and product release dates.

Our agreement with our shippers is strong and solid - we have lots of recourse due to issues we experience with them. However, having recourse due to the way agreements are set up is not the same as having lightning fast solutions to problems that arise. Furthermore, bringing down a hammer on them based on their service to us while in the midst of a large shipping project is not necessarily wise. There can be strong reasons to wait for much of it to happen after fulfillment is complete (and that is the case here).

And finally, regarding the survey - even if our shippers had been perfect and CW O3 was already 100% fulfilled weeks or even months ago, we would do the survey the same way. We expect the largest number of responses to our survey to occur DURING the campaign. Once we've seen all the numbers, we will be deciding what to offer in the pledge manager - that has always been our specific plan. Or, rather, once we get enough responses about a particular product, we'll announce it will be available. So, throughout the Kickstarter there may be updates saying "such and such CW product will be offered in the PM." That's always been the plan.

Hope this helps answer concerns!

























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darksurtur wrote:
Avtomatik wrote:
Without getting into validity of ur claims I'd greatly appreciate if this one thread could be free of OS3 is late! posts as they are derailing the subject topic.
I am sure there are at least half a dozen of os3 is late! threads so u could talk abou them there.

I for one didnt back os3 and really dont give a fuck are they late or not, but would like to hear peoples opinions on os4.


Of course, no reason to think past performance might be relevant to assessing the current campaign.


That is why anyone can check other half a dozen topicd that are concerned with this problem.
 
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darksurtur
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coppt2 wrote:
darksurtur, a preview of what is to come: Petersens will work hard to provide a product that'll be damn good and damn late. Those of us who've been kickstarting them for awhile learn to accept this. Every single time, somebody starts howling in the comments section that they aren't doing their job, that they're just keeping all our money and the pledge isn't coming, etc. It gets tiresome to hear.

If their being late with the deliveries is really that problematic, by all means withdraw your pledge. Or accept the inconvenience. Either way, the online ranting is tiresome.


How exactly do I withdraw my God's War pledge? (Edit: not that I want to at this point, I'm resigned to waiting.)

I'm not saying I think Petersen will not deliver or will deliver bad products. But delivering them years late IS a problem, and people shouldn't generally double down on poor Kickstarter practices. It's absurd to say that they shouldn't be held accountable for shipping issues because they are a smallish publisher or that discussing those very real issues is "tiresome" because it's not personally relevant to you.

They need to get their manufacturing and shipping process in order. Right now, they are not.
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Arthur Petersen
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darksurtur wrote:
coppt2 wrote:
darksurtur, a preview of what is to come: Petersens will work hard to provide a product that'll be damn good and damn late. Those of us who've been kickstarting them for awhile learn to accept this. Every single time, somebody starts howling in the comments section that they aren't doing their job, that they're just keeping all our money and the pledge isn't coming, etc. It gets tiresome to hear.

If their being late with the deliveries is really that problematic, by all means withdraw your pledge. Or accept the inconvenience. Either way, the online ranting is tiresome.


How exactly do I withdraw my God's War pledge? (Edit: not that I want to at this point, I'm resigned to waiting.)

I'm not saying I think Petersen will not deliver or will deliver bad products. But delivering them years late IS a problem, and people shouldn't generally double down on poor Kickstarter practices. It's absurd to say that they shouldn't be held accountable for shipping issues because they are a smallish publisher or that discussing those very real issues is "tiresome" because it's not personally relevant to you.

They need to get their manufacturing and shipping process in order. Right now, they are not.


To be fair, CW O3 and TGW are not necessarily representative of our manufacturing and shipping processes. On the shipping side, these issues have not happened in the past very often (the CW O2 product did get held up in customs in the US for a month, and the CW O1 second wave took longer than expected). But most of our other projects - once the product was physically in the warehouse - were actually processed at normal speed, and not subject to these long delays in getting things out to backers.

For manufacturing, similar things can be said - i.e., that the situation is atypical, rather than typical. While we have definitely experienced delays on previous projects, the delays related to TGW and CW O3 at the manufacturing level were very specific:
our factory was embroiled in a lawsuit that affected dozens of employees and their ability to manufacture our games was inhibited for at least a year. I summarized this here, in case you missed it (I had linked to it in some KS updates previously):
https://petersengames.com/what-really-happened-to-the-gods-w...

Our other recent projects each have their own stories, but none are experiencing anywhere near the issues that CW O3 and especially TGW have. Here's a breakdown of recent projects:

Evil High Priest shipped only a month late (last fall).

Planet Apocalyse is a few months behind schedule (not a year), and due entirely to tooling taking longer (to ensure the minis are as good as possible)

Startropolis is very very close to its schedule (looks like it will end up being about 1 month late, and this is also due to tooling taking longer than expected).

Sandy Petersen's Cthulhu Mythos for 5e is ahead of schedule by about 2 months, and will begin to ship in about a month - the books are close to arriving at the warehouse for US and EU

It's much too early to say anything about more recent Kickstarters, but I will say that Daemon Sultan, for example, is already nearly half way through with tooling.

Hope this helps elaborate!




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