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Subject: Least liked nemesis? rss

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Kevin 'qxc' Riley
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Which nemesis(s) do you like the least and why? Trying to gather more information as we start preliminary designs for AE5.

Thanks!
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Will
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Hard question. I think there are two aspects to this for me - difficulty and mechanics. If a nemesis is too easy, then it doesn't have much replayability for me. But, there are quite a few nemeses that have lower difficulty levels but great mechanics (Carapace Queen comes to mind - and she shines on increased difficulty), so I'll focus my answer on mechanics.

I'm probably least likely to play Wraithmonger. I have a love/hate relationship with him because I do think the concept of the terror tiles is cool and mostly well implemented, but I think it was a mistake to have the terror track end on "The players lose." Because every unleash resolves a terror tile, it makes it far too easy to have an autoloss in a game that was under control when you get 3 or 4 nemesis turns in a row. The only way to avoid it is to constantly return the terror tiles once you get to mid tier 2, which basically means that you never get to use your mages abilities. The RNG from the turn order deck is usually a fun and interesting aspect of the game, but Wraithmonger is overly swingy with a bad turn order draw.

Rageborne is a close second. Too much RNG, too little challenge, but I think I excuse him since he's the introductory nemesis.
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N. P.
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Wraithmonger. I don't like having to throw extra aether at diffusing its unleashes because I just like building big engines.

Wraithmonger slightly edges Knight of Shackles for me because I find that rather than players buying a lot more charges than usual, players buy roughly the same amount of charges and just almost never use their abilities.

Also Wraithmonger naturally encourages players to play into range of a slightly disappointing lose condition by making it more efficient to wait until at least 3 or 4 terror tiles come out before resetting them.
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Will
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mynameisthis wrote:
Wraithmonger. I don't like having to throw extra aether at diffusing it's unleashes because I just like building big engines.


Agree. I'd rather have a nemesis actively sabotage my engine (e.g. "Discard 2 cards! Man, now I don't have enough aether to buy X") than passively sabotage my engine by just making me spend money on something else.
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Ron Hatch
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With the caveat that I still haven't tried all of them (particularly the higher difficulty ratings from the 2nd wave)... the one nemesis I'm the least inclined to play against is the Crooked Mask. Simply because I love the fact that your deck doesn't get shuffled in Aeon's End, and he changes that.
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I also agree with Wraithmonger being my least favorite. I think it's the mix of two different 'lockouts' of normal mechanics (both blocking off normal charge use and require charge payment) that irks me, combined with the 'instant lose' condition that can come very suddenly. I've had more than a few games where someone buys off the tokens, then the nemesis deck hits powers that result in "Unleash Twice" combined with "Unleash Twice" attacks and results in everything cascading. It feels more like an unexpected shock rather than the 'creeping' feeling. This combines with the actual unleashes being a bit much to deal with, even when constantly refreshing the tokens.

I think my second least favorite is Maiden of Thorns. I don't mind having the token influencing my purchasing decisions, but even more than Rageborne, I feel like fighting Maiden ends up in massive damage spikes that don't allow for much reaction. I think part of it is not liking how the 'token upgrades' work - at tier 2, the extra damage combine with the 'token upgrade' in a way that makes it feel like an excessive damage spike. (In terms of what's actually written, it also bugs me that that the 'upgrade condition' is written on the setup side rather than the active side, since that makes it easier to forget.)
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Ron Hatch
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ronhatch wrote:
With the caveat that I still haven't tried all of them (particularly the higher difficulty ratings from the 2nd wave)... the one nemesis I'm the least inclined to play against is the Crooked Mask. Simply because I love the fact that your deck doesn't get shuffled in Aeon's End, and he changes that.

With the popularity of Wraithmonger as an answer, I think it's worth specifically noting that he's one I haven't tried yet...
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Matthew Trujillo
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I second Crooked Mask as a least favorite, and I just got off of a 4 game losing streak vs. Wraithmonger. His ability to wreck you in a couple turns is undeniably frustrating, but also exhilirating to overcome when you finally beat him. I ultimately enjoy that aspect of the game. Mask's mechanic just disrupts a core aspect of what makes Aeon's End special, which is why he's bottom tier for me.
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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qxc0 wrote:
Which nemesis(s) do you like the least and why? Trying to gather more information as we start preliminary designs for AE5.

Thanks!


1. Maiden of Thorns. I dislike the damage deluge and the fiddliness of moving the Thorn token around, and I never remember to upgrade it when we change tiers.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea that tiers matter, but I'd not some sort of reminder, like a divider card which says "tier 2, change the thorn token".
Plus the Increased Difficulty rules are the least fun to play so far in my opinion.

2. Wraithmonger. Shutting down your charge ability isn't fun, otherwise it's an interesting design.
The Unleash-related loss condition, though, is a pain.

3. From Legacy,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Fungal Mesh. I think having you take the hit from your spell AND discard it on top of that is just too much.


4. Ageless Walker. I heavily dislike repeated forced discard.
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michal
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Maelstorm and Haze Fiend cause they are not well playable outside campaign. I tried Maelstorm with basic nemesis cards only (evolved as main + standard) and it almost plays well. It needs boost that other nemesis has on their playmats (increased difficulty option).
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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c08mk wrote:
Maelstorm and Haze Fiend cause they are not well playable outside campaign. I tried Maelstorm with basic nemesis cards only (evolved as main + standard) and it almost plays well. It needs boost that other nemesis has on their playmats (increased difficulty option).


They were described as non-playable because they have campaign aspects that dont' make sense outside the campaign.
Because of that they're also extremely vanilla if played outside the campaign, so while they work, they're not interested to play against when compared to more elaborate Nemeses.
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Take Walker
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Note that I've literally only fought three nemeses ever, but I really hated Carapace Queen because A) it took me forever to beat her, specifically because B) you have to have a specific setup in order to win. Like, if you randomize everything, there's no chance unless you get lucky. You have to certain spells that let you deal constant damage, and at least one mage who can do similar with their setup. Maybe I'm approaching this game from the wrong mindset, but an enemy that says "have X or die" just isn't that great.
 
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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TakeWalker wrote:
Note that I've literally only fought three nemeses ever, but I really hated Carapace Queen because A) it took me forever to beat her, specifically because B) you have to have a specific setup in order to win. Like, if you randomize everything, there's no chance unless you get lucky. You have to certain spells that let you deal constant damage, and at least one mage who can do similar with their setup. Maybe I'm approaching this game from the wrong mindset, but an enemy that says "have X or die" just isn't that great.


I do not share your views but the group I've played her with hated her too.
 
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Chris Edwards
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TakeWalker wrote:
Note that I've literally only fought three nemeses ever, but I really hated Carapace Queen because A) it took me forever to beat her, specifically because B) you have to have a specific setup in order to win. Like, if you randomize everything, there's no chance unless you get lucky. You have to certain spells that let you deal constant damage, and at least one mage who can do similar with their setup. Maybe I'm approaching this game from the wrong mindset, but an enemy that says "have X or die" just isn't that great.


My gf and I just beat her last night with a completely random market (we had 6 gems and 3 spells). The only thing we had that was specifically good against Carapace Queen was Yan Magda (we selected 2 of 4 randomly-picked mages).

Don't forget that you can divide up a high-damage spell to hit lots of Husks (at the cost of one damage to the caster).
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Farydia Pseudo
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I like the Queen, as well.

I don't much care for Rageborn. I find him horribly random and not very interesting. I liked the Umbra Titan much better as an introductory Nemesis.

Also, I find the Wayward One pretty fiddly. I like the idea behind him, but every time I want to set up a game, I look at all the stuff to consider and do correctly and just think "nah...".
 
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Farydia wrote:
Also, I find the Wayward One pretty fiddly. I like the idea behind him, but every time I want to set up a game, I look at all the stuff to consider and do correctly and just think "nah...".


Really? I find him pretty straightforward. Especially if you choose to deck him.
 
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Razoupaf wrote:


3. From Legacy,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Fungal Mesh. I think having you take the hit from your spell AND discard it on top of that is just too much.



Funny, I really enjoyed your #3 pick. I will say from Legacy:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I really did not like Haze Fiend. Fortunately it was a one-off, but it was easily the least fun I've had playing this game.


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Icarus599 wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I really did not like Haze Fiend. Fortunately it was a one-off, but it was easily the least fun I've had playing this game.




I agree with that one but for the reason you mention, didn't include it.
Besides Kevin already knows what I think of that one
 
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Alec Chapman
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Icarus599 wrote:
Razoupaf wrote:


3. From Legacy,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Fungal Mesh. I think having you take the hit from your spell AND discard it on top of that is just too much.



Funny, I really enjoyed your #3 pick. I will say from Legacy:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I really did not like Haze Fiend. Fortunately it was a one-off, but it was easily the least fun I've had playing this game.




THIS THIS THIS. Heavy agree with both points.
 
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Umbra Titan is easily my most disliked;

Conceptually, he's fine - but he's mechanically so fiddly, for what he actually does - alternating damage between Breach Mages and Gravehold. Having to check if it's his first turn, or second turn is a real chore.

I'd actually probably use an alternating token (sun/moon, 1/2, etc...) in the future - and have it flip at the end of each turn. It'd end up the same mechanically, but be easier for processing.

Which is actually what I think my biggest issue is with him - he's a "new player boss"; that has endless amounts of text, and things to keep track of. Again, conceptually he's straightforward; but the execution always bugged me.

---

Here's the thing though, I love complex bosses. I love challenging bosses. I love losing, especially in Aeon's End.

I just don't like fiddly bosses - and I think he's fiddly because I have to check an outside source, somewhere completely else on the table, that isn't usually referenced. - The solution though would be to give him two unique turn order cards ("Dig" (1), "Gorge" (2)), and have his effects and nemesis cards reference that.

I understand that concept wasn't explored until afterwards though, with the Nemesis Blitz card.

...and I feel that I should also state - I love bosses that use existing mechanics in new ways. Umbra Titan with emphasis on 1st/2nd Nemesis turn is a great design; most bosses don't use the Turn Order deck (minus Gatewitch)

Speaking of Gatewitch, she suffers from the same problem Umbra Titan does in my mind; I have to mentally keep track of "is this the first, or second turn" every time I draw a Nemesis Turn order card - I understand using two individual turn order cards ("1" and "2") similar to above, would mess with her balance - allowing her to get more turns in a round quicker, so...

---

I should further clarify that most of my playtime is on Tabletop Simulator; I own all of the existing games and content; it's just easier to play on TTS, and find groups. - So, that definitely affects the "fiddliness" level as well.
 
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Having to constantly manipulate an additional set of component would only add to the fiddliness though, be it on TTS or IRL.
 
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Ty Arnold
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Maiden of Thorns has to be my pick; between the overtuned difficulty, fiddlyness, and lack of ability to make interesting decisions, it all comes together in a way that makes it unfun.

From Legacy, I have to pick
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Bladius. His design is just so lazy even compared to other tutorial bosses, and we went through the entire legacy campaign assuming there would be some kind of sticker for some kind of extra rules to add to him because there's so little going on.
 
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wpflug13 wrote:

I'm probably least likely to play Wraithmonger. I have a love/hate relationship with him because I do think the concept of the terror tiles is cool and mostly well implemented, but I think it was a mistake to have the terror track end on "The players lose." Because every unleash resolves a terror tile, it makes it far too easy to have an autoloss in a game that was under control when you get 3 or 4 nemesis turns in a row. The only way to avoid it is to constantly return the terror tiles once you get to mid tier 2, which basically means that you never get to use your mages abilities. The RNG from the turn order deck is usually a fun and interesting aspect of the game, but Wraithmonger is overly swingy with a bad turn order draw.

Rageborne is a close second. Too much RNG, too little challenge, but I think I excuse him since he's the introductory nemesis.


What Will said +
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Haze fiend
as it felt like it doesn't particularly scale well with fewer player counts.
 
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I like the least the easy ones since they are outgrown quick or very hard ones that you can't play until you get to 'their level'. Also the ones in which the difficult mode doesn't add too much difficulty.

A big problem is that overall, difficulties are inflexible, and thus the pool is very limited: Only to around the player's skill level.
 
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