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Subject: Improving nemesis basic cards rss

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Kevin 'qxc' Riley
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Traditionally, we've focused greater attention on mages/nemeses than the basic cards, but for AE5 I'm planning for better, more exciting basic cards to be a higher priority.

I'm looking for ideas regarding making new nemesis basic cards for AE5. What sort of effects would you like to see?
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Will
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Honestly, I don't know that I want anymore. We've already for core sets and about another set between promos and small expansions. For me to want to use up more precious storage space on basic cards, they would need to do something new (i.e. not Unleash, deal 2 damage to Gravehold). I'm thinking things like the spell redirect from Buried Secrets, but ideally more consistent.

Maybe something along the lines of:

Attack: Until the next nemesis turn, in order to cast a spell, a player must first take one damage.

Power: While this card is in play, all market cards cost one additional aether.
To discard: Destroy three cards from the supply pile with the fewest gems.
Power 3: The nemesis gains three life for each card missing from the gem supply pile with the fewest cards.

I wouldn't want to go overboard with global effects though, tracking nightmare.
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I'd need to give it some more deeper thought to pin down specific effects. However, I think the first thing I'd ask for is, "Avoid overusing Unleash Twice." A single "Unleash" on Tier 2 cards consistently allows the nemesis to continuously advance its main game plan. However, I'd like to see more of that power budget put into other effects, rather than have a solid chunk of effects be, "The nemesis does its thing a lot, then does a small other thing."

wpflug13 wrote:
Honestly, I don't know that I want anymore. We've already for core sets and about another set between promos and small expansions. For me to want to use up more previous storage space on basic cards, they would need to do something new (i.e. not Unleash, deal 2 damage to Gravehold). I'm thinking things like the spell redirect from Buried Secrets, but ideally more consistent.

Maybe something along the lines of:

Attack: Until the next nemesis turn, in order to cast a spell, a player must first take one damage.

Power: While this card is in play, all market cards cost one additional aether.
To discard: Destroy three cards from the supply pile with the fewest gems.
Power 3: The nemesis gains three life for each card missing from the gem supply pile with the fewest cards.

I wouldn't want to go overboard with global effects though, tracking nightmare.


The first attack sounds more like a "Power 1" effect, but it does get fiddly tracking that kind of thing. I think the second is inconsistent, given how varied nemesis health tends to be - Imagine Magus of Cloaks versus Hollow Crown.
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michal
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Cards placed in specific places e.g.:
- on player discard pile - when player would draw later that card they would of course see different back but this could only make game more thrilling knowing that unwanted effect is right on top of the deck
- on market - blocking purchase or doing something annoying when buying cards
- on players breaches - nemesis would cast thier spell through player breaches (we have attack, power, minion so this could be an idea for new card type in basic nemesis e.g. "Spell")
- on turn order deck discard - could be additional one time effect or an effect that will be triggered untill the end of the game when drawn e.g. activate all minions.

Power cards that would stay in game and would be triggered every time when player would damage nemesis.

Minions that would focus on harassing single player. They could placed in player area and other players would have limited influence on inflicting damage to that minion.
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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I love what I'm seeing this time. They're definitely a priority in my opinion, even if it's just a booster pack or a small box expansion containing nothing but a hundred of them.

I think I told you earlier, but I would love to see passive effects from Power cards. I'm fond of Carapace Queen's that ups the HP of her husks while it's in play. I love the ones that have a passive effect once resolved, that lasts all throughout the game. I think these are very interesting design. It may be a little more fiddly to keep track of them, true. But at your 5th interaction I think we can deal with that.

Stuff like Power 6: when you form a new turn order deck, add a third Nemesis card to it, for instance, could be interesting (untested).
Or Power X: A player must pay 1 aether to prep a spell to an open or focused breach.

That kind of nuisance could be an interesting direction.

The return of shield for minions would not displease me.

For attacks, going on a wild idea there, but in KD:M there are cards called Duration effects: they're drawn once facedown, have a passive effect, and the turn after (provided you don't discard them but wounding the monster) they're drawn face-up to a second effect. I think it's a very nice effect. You could work into something like that, maybe?

One thing I think you should avoid is attaching cards to breaches. It's cumbersome. It works for spells, but with Relics it was fiddly, there's just nowhere to put them and keep them readable.
If you want to do that you could do tokens instead.

Which makes me think, what do you think of replacement tokens? For instance, an Attack card gives all player a replacement token that modifies their charge bar, like a charge now costs 3, or it takes 1 or 2 additional charges to trigger an ability? You could have it on passive power cards too, and that would make it easier to remember.
I'm also still on the idea that closing and unfocusing breaches could be something to explore.
Both on Nemesis cards and on player cards.
Have powerful effects that come cheap but close down your breaches as a price, or stuff like that, like, say:

Little Monstrous Inferno.
Spell.
Cost: 5.
Must be prepped on 2 breaches.
On Cast: Deal 4 damage. You may close down the breaches this was cast from (facing left) to have this deal +3 damage and deal damage divided to as many targets as you wish.
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Sebastian Elliker
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qxc0 wrote:
Traditionally, we've focused greater attention on mages/nemeses than the basic cards, but for AE5 I'm planning for better, more exciting basic cards to be a higher priority.

I'm looking for ideas regarding making new nemesis basic cards for AE5. What sort of effects would you like to see?

The card effects are nice already, but sometimes they are a bit disjointed as one simply shuffles the various Level 1/2/3 cards together and takes the indicated number of cards for building the nemesis deck. It would be nice to have pre-constructed sets or themes for the cards that mesh well together, like the cards that come from the nemeses. For instance, have 2 Level-1, 2 Level-2, 2 level-3 basic nemesis cards that synergize with each other. Thus, you have more of buildup during the game even with just the basic nemesis cards and you can simply pick like 2 basic nemesis card sets and the nemesis cards and shuffle then and done is the deck.
 
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Bram Kok
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I did enjoy the build up in basic nemesis cards in Legacy. If you're able to pull off something similar in the regular game, it would be great.

Example:
L1/2 cards give tokens based on decision/result while L2/3 could reference these and determine their effect based on that.

Example 2:
A card that gets inserted back into the deck. For example "On resolve remove the top card of the nemesis deck and place this card third the top"
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Maurizio Briosi
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For now I think I simply have too much content, and will prefer a small expansion for this aspect than a full AE5 product, or just ways to reuse what I have (like a way to make a balanced nemesis deck out of mixed previous content).


- +1 for passive effects on power cards, carapace queen card really changes how you deal with her.
- In general cards you have a choice about, and can prepare for.
- Cards that have both a benefits & drawback (take x damage and gain x charges).
- Effect that vary based on the cost/type of card you use to counter it.

- Reduce or remove the many "unleash twice", especially if you do not have a choice to avoid it.
- On the same note, because two nemesis turns in a row is pretty common...do away with "Power:1" cards.

For new concepts that may be fun:

- Attacks that stay on a player for "the next turn" (like you take X damage for each spell you cast/buy). A stronger way may be cards that get added to a player discard, and take effect when it gets drawn (like in Robinson Crusoe).
- Cards that do something when they leave play (maybe beneficial); like power cards that become minions (like an evolve mechanic, in a splitted card), or minions with "on death" effects.
- Effects that swap cards between players.
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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Sorlin wrote:
- Cards that do something when they leave play (maybe beneficial); like power cards that become minions (like an evolve mechanic, in a splitted card), or minions with "on death" effects.


Ah yes, I used that for my Denizens of Gravehold thing, I called it Deathcry after Hearthstone but obviously it would need renaming.
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Shaun Pande
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Both as an idea for future nemeses specific cards and for future basic cards, I think there is room to continue building off some of the mechanics from legacy.

Specifically, I know most groups loved the nemesis or basic cards that gave you some sort of involved consequence or benefit.

[Spoilers]Specifically I remember when fighting a Legacy Nemesis(Deathmind, I think), if you completed a power card in time that saved Brama, you got a specific reward. I think that mechanic of getting a potential reward for a card would be interesting. [/Spoilers]

I also think you could have basic minions or power cards evolve so to speak. I.e. A power card that doesn't get discarded after it runs out, but instead has a dotted line and then turns into another power card you need to resolve. Example:

To Discard: Lose 2 charges
Power 2: One player loses two cards, Evolve
EVOLVED
To Discard: Lose 2 Health
Power 2: Two players lose two cards
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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pandabro14 wrote:
Both as an idea for future nemeses specific cards and for future basic cards, I think there is room to continue building off some of the mechanics from legacy.

Specifically, I know most groups loved the nemesis or basic cards that gave you some sort of involved consequence or benefit.


I liked it in Legacy but wouldn't care much for it outside of it.
Personally I'm in over the head with campaign games and am not looking for a new one.

Not that I'm signing it off, but I'd rather have a 100% stand-alone game again
 
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Shaun Pande
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Not to have permanently evolving cards Raz, but cards that just evolved within the scope of a single game. No carry over from game to game.
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pandabro14 wrote:
Not to have permanently evolving cards Raz, but cards that just evolved within the scope of a single game. No carry over from game to game.


Ah I see. Sort of like the Duration cards I mention, but over more turns. Nice.
 
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Aaron Bredon
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It might also be interesting to have linked effects - tier 1 card(s) that gets set aside after resolving, then Tier 2 or 3 cards that do more if that Tier 1 card has been set aside. Especially interesting if that Tier 1 card is a power with a painful "to discard" - do you suffer to discard so the card won't be set aside, or hope the Tier 2/3 cards aren't there or don't come at a bad time.

These cards would probably be worse with more players - it becomes more likely for the combo to show up.
 
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Shaun Pande
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Also a great idea. I think those kind of things create a "story" over a battle and makes it feel cohesive.
 
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I think the tricky thing about a lot of effects discussed here is that they make a lot more sense on nemesis-specific effects, rather than in a basic deck. When dealing with basic effects, it's pretty important that the effect can both make sense and be resolved quickly, regardless of which nemesis it's attached to and regardless of the game state. In general, that means it shouldn't require additional setup/teardown/maintenance mid-game.

I think that's why a lot of 'minion token' effects exist on nemesis cards that use minions, but they haven't really appeared on basic cards. If these cards appear on a basic card, it ends up require additional tracking for 'how does this token function' on a case by case basis, and can get worse if multiple cards reference those tokens in different ways, especially if they appear at the same time. It works better when it's tied in to a specific nemesis - 'how this token functions' is usually tied up in their core playstyle, so it's not nearly as much of a strain to add one more to a resource pool, compared to creating an entirely new effect that requires separate tracking.

Similarly, cards that reference other cards are difficult to use in basic sets, because there's no guarantee that either the referencing or referenced card exists. It'll be awkward if you have a card that says, 'When you draw Attack B, trigger it twice', then never have Attack B appear because it wasn't in your random set. It works fine in a nemesis set because you know which 9 cards exist, and can create something more 'definite' that way. (I think that's why cards which reference others mostly say 'the last minion in the discard' or the like.)
 
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Cards that reference other cards sound cumbersome, and the potential whiffing means they'll be disappointing most of the time.

An interesting idea but not one I'd see making sense in a game which uses random generic cards. Would make more sense in SotM I think.
 
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glennfrogknight
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One thing I'd like to see is a way to construct "properly balanced" nemesis decks. Right now, I have a LOT of Basic nemesis cards, but no good way to really balance out building one - if I shuffle them all at random, you can end up with Tier 1 being nothing but Minions, which is not fun.

I've been taking to try and creating an approximate balance between the amounts of attack, power, and minion, but something more guided would be great.
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Will
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Also, I haven't had a chance to develop them at all, but I still think there is potential in the Power Tap cards I came up with:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2119750/power-tap-basic-nem...
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Chris Edwards
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My gf says "more cards that give the players a choice to make."
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Take Walker
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Along with that, I kind of like the card that's like, "This is going off in three turns no matter what you do, you'd just better have no spells prepped by then if you know what's good for you."
 
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TakeWalker wrote:
Along with that, I kind of like the card that's like, "This is going off in three turns no matter what you do, you'd just better have no spells prepped by then if you know what's good for you."


I'll Dimensional Key that thank you
 
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Llyranor Ilfarath
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Definitely more cards that give players options.

Also, perhaps some cards that can provide situational benefits for players, but at a heavier cost.
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weasel47 wrote:
My gf says "more cards that give the players a choice to make."

THIS. Straightforward cards have their place, but I would like to see more choices with multiple meaningful options.

I also have a couple very specific requests:

1. Powers and Minions that declare a specific Mage as a target when revealed. I specify Powers and Minions because of how key being "preventable" is to this concept. If my ally discards a Power card that "damages the Mage with the least open breaches", it doesn't feel like they protected me, even if I had the least open breaches. However, if a Mage is given ownership of a threat, neutralizing that threat is unquestionably protecting that Mage. This dynamic can be further reinforced by having a separate aether cost to change the target. Whether or not to discard a Power is not always much of a choice. However, paying 2 aether to have a Power hit me instead of you, when I could have bought a charge, is definitely a choice. It feels more like a favor and more personal than discarding an owner-less threat.

2. Tier 2 & 3 Nemesis cards that hurt players with strong engines, but somewhat help players with weak engines. This is so important. Even though this game is cooperative, it's not fun feeling like your Mage has stopped feeling useful when your engine didn't come together for whatever reason. Maybe it was because you were the one who paid to discard all the early power cards. The Tier 3 nemesis card that shuffles up a player deck and destroys 3 random cards is one of the best and most memorable basic nemesis cards in the game. The effect is potentially devastating for a powerful Mage with a thin deck of strong cards. However, it's amazing for the Mage that has little to lose. Suddenly their bad deck has a purpose. That moment where you shuffle everything up, flip over 3 cards, and they're all Crystals, is amazing. It feels like your weak deck was made to tank that effect. Then, for what's left of the game, your deck feels just a bit less clunky compared to your allies.

3. For non-basic nemesis cards: Cards that hit a Mage completely at random. This changes the risk reward dynamic. Currently, as long as your most important Mage has 1 more health than everyone else, you're good to go. However I like being forced to take or avoid risks based on known odds. I don't want this on basic nemesis cards, because if I don't know the card is in the deck, I don't have a good reason to play around it. I guess if the basic deck persists through a campaign, I could be OK with this on a basic card.

4. Something that forces players to trade cards. I'd like to see what players would give one another when forced to make the choice. Maybe have a punishment for being a cheapskate.
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mynameisthis wrote:
I have a couple very specific requests:

1. Powers and Minions that declare a specific Mage as a target when revealed. I specify Powers and Minions because of how key being "preventable" is to this concept. If my ally discards a Power card that "damages the Mage with the least open breaches", it doesn't feel like they protected me, even if I had the least open breaches. However, if a Mage is given ownership of a threat neutralizing that threat is unquestionably protecting that Mage. This dynamic can be further reinforced by having a separate aether cost to change the target. Whether or not to discard a Power is not always much of a choice. However, paying 2 aether to have a Power hit me instead of you, when I could have bought a charge, is definitely a choice. It feels more like a favor and more personal than discarding an owner-less threat.


Do you have any ideas on implementing this? My best immediate thought is to target the revealed player number closest to the top of the turn order discard, though that causes problems after a shuffle. You could also target people as normal (most open breaches, least life, most prepped spells, etc.), but lock it in when the card is revealed rather than when it resolves.
 
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