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Subject: Angry Face and Obstacles With Hitpoints, Again (Spoilers for Angry Face) rss

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Adrian Brooks
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The Rules say:

Quote:
Destroying obstacles: When an obstacle is specified as having hit points in the scenario book, it can be attacked and will be destroyed and removed from the board when it drops below 1 hit point. Obstacles with hit points can only be destroyed through damage and not through other character abilities. These obstacles are considered enemies for all ability purposes and have an initiative of 99 for the purpose of summon focusing, but they are immune to all negative conditions.


Dooms affect enemies. Dooms aren't conditions. Dooms clearly should work against Obstacles with Hit Points. Yet the FAQ says:

Quote:
Obstacles with hit points, however, cannot be doomed.


Why?

I'm not the first to ask:

This thread got no answer:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2024373/angry-face-and-obst...


Marcel wrote (Here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2049517/questions-re-obstac...)

Quote:
Doom per-se is a condition like ability, so as they are immune to conditions, it is a bit clearer to just included dooms in the ruling (there is a doom that kills a target in 3 turns, which would be quite strong in some scenarios featuring obstacles with hp).


But that's nonsense. RAW already stops the kill Doom from working ("Obstacles with hit points can only be destroyed through damage and not through other character abilities"), and I'm of the opinion that the FAQ overriding the rules does the opposite of making anything clearer.

(I love the weasel-wording of "condition like ability")

Anyone know the original source of the ruling? Isaac being arbitrary somewhere?

(Of course, the FAQ's not the rules, so we may well ignore it. And yes, I'm a little sore that despite being the only player doing *any* tree damage in our losing attempt at scenario 72 I "should" have done even less)
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Darren Nakamura
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Just chiming in to note my continued support of this question. Angry Face is built to be a high single-target damage dealer, and this additional ruling (that I would argue contradicts the rule book) nerfs him in obstacles-with-hit-points scenarios. I still don't see why.
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Adrian Brooks
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Thanks Dex. Just peering at your thread, you identify the problem cards as:

"Crashing Wave: You and all allies add Curse to attacks targeting the obstacle" - which isn't a problem, as Curses are a condition and the obstacle is immune.

and

"Felling Swoop: Doomstalker teleports to the location where a Doomed thing dies. Maybe a problem for two- or three-hex obstacles? But then I'd say he just gets to choose which hex."

Which I agree needs a ruling. But, I'll ask the world in general "What happens when Felling Swoop is up and the Doomstalker kills a multi-hex boss that's sitting on an obstacle" to note that it's not even the most problematical case.
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Patrick Reardon
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Also curious about this one. I would have been a lot more useful in Scenario 72
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Oozing Grove, after my big AoE attacks, if I were able to properly damage the trees. Instead I mostly picked off an ooze every couple turns, when they would just respawn.


Considering house ruling it to be allowed, but it hasn't come up in a major way since--since we play 4 players we were able to give the tree damaging role to another character.
 
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Alex Florin
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The FAQ is official rules. All entries are vetted by Isaac. In addition to clarifications, it contains errata and exceptions to statements in the rule book.
 
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Alex Florin
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Slow Dog wrote:
aflorin wrote:
The FAQ is official rules. All entries are vetted by Isaac. In addition to clarifications, it contains errata and exceptions to statements in the rule book.


Nah. It hasn't changed in the rules editions published subsequently to the FAQ, so he's presumably changed his mind again. The FAQ is out of date.


Unfortunately several FAQ entries didn't make it into the more recent rule book revisions.

Here is his official ruling on that BTW:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25752513#25752513
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Adrian Brooks
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aflorin wrote:
Slow Dog wrote:
aflorin wrote:
The FAQ is official rules. All entries are vetted by Isaac. In addition to clarifications, it contains errata and exceptions to statements in the rule book.


Nah. It hasn't changed in the rules editions published subsequently to the FAQ, so he's presumably changed his mind again. The FAQ is out of date.


Unfortunately several FAQ entries didn't make it into the more recent rule book revisions.

Here is his official ruling on that BTW:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25752513#25752513


I thought better of my post, but you replied as I was deleting it; thanks anyway.

 
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Darren Nakamura
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aflorin wrote:
The FAQ is official rules. All entries are vetted by Isaac. In addition to clarifications, it contains errata and exceptions to statements in the rule book.


I'm not questioning the ruling in the FAQ when I ask this. It is clear that obstacles cannot be Doomed. I am asking: Why? What problem does this extra ruling solve that the rules as written in the rule book fail to address?

EDIT: It contrasts with a lot of the freedom in this game, where my players will find something so cool they might be able to do that they're not sure if it's allowed, and more often than not, it's allowed. Dooming obstacles isn't even that cool; I'd consider it mundane and default, but despite that it is not allowed.
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Dave Goldthorpe
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Dexter345 wrote:
I'm not questioning the ruling in the FAQ when I ask this. It is clear that obstacles cannot be Doomed. I am asking: Why?


It fits the theme perfectly. It avoids a varity of other rulings that are only necessary if dooms can be put on objects. It prevents a variety of silly concepts such as characters healing themsleves by bashing a doomed rock in the middle of a dungeon.
 
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Adrian Brooks
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DaveGold wrote:
It avoids a varity of other rulings that are only necessary if dooms can be put on objects


Can suggest what this variety of required rulings is? We've identified one card that's a problem, and it's already got the same problem even without obstacles.

Quote:
It prevents a variety of silly concepts such as characters healing themsleves by bashing a doomed rock in the middle of a dungeon.


A Saw can heal his friends by bashing a rock; why shouldn't an Angry Face?
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Darren Nakamura
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I asked it in the other thread on this topic, but what does it even mean, thematically, when Angry Face Dooms something? It's not explicit. If it's somehow tied to an entity's life force, then maybe you're onto something. But for a lot of the Dooms, I just imagine them as a sort of "focus" that is put on them; Angry Face takes a bottom action, doesn't move, squints his eyes really sharply, and stares down his target, which gives him extra damage on that target. If that's what's happening, then obstacles shouldn't be exempt.

I don't really know or have any preconceived notions about what a Doom is, and maybe that's why I don't personally run into any thematic trip-ups when I think about Dooming obstacles. It seems natural to me that he should be able to.
 
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Graeme
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Angry Face is a very strong character (my son has his up to level 8, with lots of enhanced cards). Having a handful of scenarios where he's not as strong is fine, in my opinion. The number of obstacles-with-hitpoints scenarios is not very high, so if these are more challenging for Angry Face, so be it.

I see it analogous to those scenarios that play with the elements. These can be very challenging for those element-based character classes where their element is largely nerfed for that scenario, such as my Cragheart was in one particular early side-scenario we played:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Scenario 81: Temple of the Eclipse

This is the same thing. Even so, my son's Angry Face was the star when we did scenario 72
Spoiler (click to reveal)
With his jump cards, he jumped over the oozes to get to the last tree, and then alternated between long rests while invisible and sniping at the oozes from just outside their range, until the oozes self-destructed


Not being able to doom obstacles is a reasonable constraint on the powerful Angry Face. It doesn't happen very often and makes playing him more challenging for those scenarios where it does.
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Dave Goldthorpe
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Slow Dog wrote:
A Saw can heal his friends by bashing a rock; why shouldn't an Angry Face?


Because it's incredibly stupid? What's your reason why an archer should be able to heal his friends by firing arrows at some rock?

I don't know the saw class at all so please don't justify this by using spoilers on another class. It means nothing to me and I don't want to see spoilers.
 
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Jay Johnson
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DaveGold wrote:
Slow Dog wrote:
A Saw can heal his friends by bashing a rock; why shouldn't an Angry Face?


Because it's incredibly stupid? What's your reason why an archer should be able to heal his friends by firing arrows at some rock?

I don't know the saw class at all so please don't justify this by using spoilers on another class. It means nothing to me and I don't want to see spoilers.

why should an archer be able to heal his friends by firing arrows at monsters?
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Adrian Brooks
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DaveGold wrote:
[What's your reason why an archer should be able to heal his friends by firing arrows at some rock?

He transfers quantised units of the strong nuclear force from the target to himself or allies, weakening it, and more firmly binding them (or himself more rigidly). Orchids are masters of Applied Quantum mechanics.

Love a thematic discussion.

/P.S. I noticed you dodged the "what are the abilities which require rulings?" part.
 
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Jo Hohenberger
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Slow Dog wrote:
Quote:
It prevents a variety of silly concepts such as characters healing themsleves by bashing a doomed rock in the middle of a dungeon.


A Saw can heal his friends by bashing a rock; why shouldn't an Angry Face?


For me this argument is rather against Saw's ability than for the Doomstalker's from a thematic point of view.

Quote:
Angry Face takes a bottom action, doesn't move, squints his eyes really sharply, and stares down his target, which gives him extra damage on that target. If that's what's happening, then obstacles shouldn't be exempt.

For living beings this makes sense. He focuses on vital organs etc, but a tree or a rock do not have vital organs, so it would not make sense that enhanced focus would add to his damage.


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Jerome Franceschi
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DaveGold wrote:
Slow Dog wrote:
A Saw can heal his friends by bashing a rock; why shouldn't an Angry Face?


Because it's incredibly stupid? What's your reason why an archer should be able to heal his friends by firing arrows at some rock?

I don't know the saw class at all so please don't justify this by using spoilers on another class. It means nothing to me and I don't want to see spoilers.


That was quite offensive and logicaly flawed. Your point was "it's a silly concept to have an archer heal himself or other by shooting arrows", his counterpoint was "other class do the very same kind of silly thing", which is a quite valid counterpoint: by your logic why would a mindthief heal himself hitting obstacle? Yet he can.

Anyway, this game was designed with rule balance in mind first, flavour is a distant second if not third, so making theme your main argument is kind of pointless.

It seemed to me than the OP was more asking for design and balance reason for this FAQ entry, and I must say I agree that if the angry face is powerful indeed, I'm not sure nerfing him in specific and not so frequent scenario is he best way to balance him.

With that said I happened to have played this class for scenario 72 and even if I was feeling quite useless on our first try, I had fun playing around the restriction to help damaging the obstacle on our subsequent tentatives (yes it took us lots of tries), so all in all it's not that damaging to this class gameplay in my opinion (not like scenario 81 for the triforce which quite literaly rob him from all meaningful play).
 
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Adrian Brooks
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To be fair to Dave, the issue *is* theme related. I don't think I'd care if you couldn't Doom the door you've got to bash down, whereas I do care that you can't Doom the cursed trees, or the (uh) shield generator that's protecting the Boss, or the (uh) ball of sucky life energy. All these things are (like things in the game which are) obstacles with hit points. And the "obstacle with lots of hit points you need to destroy to win the scenario" (the thing we'd expect Angry to be good at) is actually more common the "rock with hit points you need to pass" version.
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