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1830: Railways & Robber Barons» Forums » Variants

Subject: no *clockwise* player order rss

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Pedro Sequeira
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It seems at least 18NEB does this, by giving 1st player to the first to pass in a round, 2nd to the second to pass, and so on

I havent played 18NEB before, but i was curious since this has a smaller impact (vs traditional alterntive) in a lower player count, and it seems NEB plays best with 3 and its 4max, compared to a potential 6p 1830 where other player actions could dictate you go 1st or 5th

I'm also not sure if it allows someone to come back in the round (by forfeiting their previous pass-position of course

I just feel the order you sit for a game shouldnt influence how it will play out, like sitting to the right of someone that really likes to be first in 4p agricola (making you last/sad), or to the left, which would be nice, instead a variant like this would make the game more fair, a bit like the way caylus handles it

Has anyone tried it in 1830?

How about in the 18NEB?

It would certainly change the game a bit.. but would it make be a bad change?
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Phil Campeau
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There are problems inherent with this as well. Say I'm fairly comfortable with my shares, and just want to buy 1 more. I see you and player 3 clearly have the money to buy 2-3 shares each right now. Clearly my best move is to pass. Even if both of you pass to spite me, I'm hurt the least, because you both miss out on more potential share growth than I do.
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Rebus Carnival
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Da Burbz
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1828 does this. Players swap priority cards if someone jumps back into the SR. I like this it is an interesting new dynamic for me.

1844: Switzerland and other determine priority by cash remaining. Also very interesting.
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J C Lawrence
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It is a Bad Choice for 1830 -- so much of the early game is dependent on knowing exactly which players in what order will always be after you in priority. The simple implication in 1830 is that it is safe to invest to your left as you have complete control of when and if you give them priority over you. With a varying priority order, this certainty is lost and with that breaks many interesting and viable strategies.

Cash-based priority has other (variously interesting) behaviours, as does the pass-based priority I used in 1828 -- but they are also games in which exactly known/predicted priority order is not such a key concern.
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Pedro Sequeira
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Phil, I'm not sure i follow your example, if you pass then to get 1st place, they will still be able to invest fully, if you do buy, and they decide to pass to go before you next round, well, they missed 2-3 invests..

What is the "pass based priority" in 1828? anything like what i described?

Also, why is it so interesting to spend the whole game "tied" to the person that happened to sit to your left?

I get it that some games just want it to be clock-wise so it is easier to flow, say, splendor, stone age, even if it means you may get a massive advantage if there is a big skill gap between players

but for something so complex and long, surely sometimes you get frustrated because the player to your left, isnt cooperating, or maybe he is always going last and preventing you from opening the new companies next turn because everyone will play before you

ps: this is mostly for a game with beginners when it is harder to predict what everyone will do, and suboptimal plays could give a "permanent" advantage to some players based only on sitting positions
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J C Lawrence
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Songok wrote:
What is the "pass based priority" in 1828? anything like what i described?


Rules.

Quote:
Also, why is it so interesting to spend the whole game "tied" to the person that happened to sit to your left?


It is a constraint and one which can be used as the basis for many strategies. That's enough by itself.

Quote:
but for something so complex and long, surely sometimes you get frustrated because the player to your left, isnt cooperating, or maybe he is always going last and preventing you from opening the new companies next turn because everyone will play before you


Understanding how to manage your strategies against the styles and skill levels of your opponents is part of the game.

Quote:
ps: this is mostly for a game with beginners when it is harder to predict what everyone will do, and suboptimal plays could give a "permanent" advantage to some players based only on sitting positions


Then a fixed seating order will make it easy to see and analyse those cases so that the players can learn to play better.
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Pedro Sequeira
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So it is the same, thanks for the link

I cant imagine ever playing caylus with a "get first then clockwise" system, and i cant imagine someone defending agricola way of doing things, except for the simplicity

I guess my views on this can be sumarized as

"Right/Left binding bad, variable turn order good. Player left of the newbie wins is a death knell, as is leaving it up to the player to the right of the leader to stop the leader. No thanks. 'Nuff said."

That said I can imagine someone who is used to the original becoming a bit attached, I see this all the time in my favorite game (Imperial) with defenders of one variant saying the other completly ruins the game ahah, I for once like it with either variant, just as i like normal agricola, but would much rather have the system changed, particularly with 4 players (with only 3 it doesnt matter as much

Will propose this for the next game of 1889 (last one someone said "well, if no 18xx does this its probably a bad design" eheh, guess now I know one that does, thanks
 
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Dave Berry
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Songok wrote:
guess now I know one that does, thanks

18GB also uses this mechanic, so that makes three, including 18Neb which you mentioned in your original post.

For a fuller list of which games use which mechanic, see the rules difference list: http://www.fwtwr.com/18xx/rules_difference_list/2_11.htm
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