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Subject: Loose the Villan before Villanturn 1 rss

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Paul Militzke
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Hey guys,

I want to know what is your experience.

We played the first two scenarios a couple of times and can't think why anyone would not to try to kill Bane (in the first) and Penguin (in the second) before turn one of the Villans turn. (In both the heores start the game)
We came to the conculsion that even with rerolls calculated its always worth trying to kill the villan before he can act. It messes up the deck of the Villan player and he looses his most powerful character before he gets the chance to defend or move him.

Whats your experience?
 
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Matthew Burgess
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Endrusacos wrote:
Hey guys,

I want to know what is your experience.

We played the first two scenarios a couple of times and can't think why anyone would not to try to kill Bane (in the first) and Penguin (in the second) before turn one of the Villans turn. (In both the heores start the game)
We came to the conculsion that even with rerolls calculated its always worth trying to kill the villan before he can act. It messes up the deck of the Villan player and he looses his most powerful character before he gets the chance to defend or move him.

Whats your experience?
I have played (and won) the first scenario twice as the villain player, and both times I barely used Bane to do it. I only used him when he was the cheapest character.

He was more of a potential threat - my nuclear option - for the heroes to be wary of. But my henchmen did all the work
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Paul Militzke
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I didn't loos eat all times, but still it seems pretty depressing to get your main character ripped appart all the time before you can use him because it just makes sense for the heroes to go for it.

So I am the Villan player without a Villan...
 
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Jeff Labrecque
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Sounds like a waste of cubes to me. That's way too many cubes to spend on movement in the first turn; at least in the first scenario. How are they even getting to Penguin in the first round on the second scenario? He's 6-8 spaces away on the board from the closest starting position without calculating move cost. Most character's exertion limit is 4 cubes per round on a given skill. Are you sure your group is calculating move correctly?
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Matthew Burgess
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Endrusacos wrote:
I didn't loos eat all times, but still it seems pretty depressing to get your main character ripped appart all the time before you can use him because it just makes sense for the heroes to go for it.

So I am the Villan player without a Villan...
If the heroes did that, and then you won anyway, then that's not a good strategy for the heroes.

Given that you've got defense and re-rolls, I'm surprised the heroes were able to get all the way to Bane (in a train carriage) AND completely take him down, before you even get to your first turn.

Are you sure you're playing *all* the rules correctly?
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Matthew Burgess
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Starting at the start – are you making sure to move 5 cubes from all heroes’ reserve zones into their fatigue zones during set up?

Edit - TL-DR - ^^it turns out this was the problem...^^

And are you putting Bane’s life track counter on 6?

Are the heroes moving more than they are allowed? Keep in mind that for heroes without the Mobility skill, it costs one additional movement point every time they move from an area that’s part of the train tracks (note: difficult terrain +1)

Heroes first move bonus is only applied to their first move of the turn, so every movement after that will cost cubes (and some moves cost more than just one cube - see above: difficult terrain).

If you are playing with Red Hood, if he picks up the minigun, he loses his first move bonus because of the weight of the item (then again, you should have already used / lost that because you have to GET to the gun before you can pick it up).

Although it’s not marked by a line, Bane is behind a wall, and there is no line of sight into his area except by being in the adjacent area (orange boundary).

Are you using all four of your available defence slots, and all four of your available re-rolls?
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BG.EXE
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I also feel like Hindering would have to be ignored to move that far. Also heroes have a movement stat, they don’t get their “Free Movement” value for every cube spent. The movement stat is usually 1.
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Matthew Burgess
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I also feel like Hindering would have to be ignored to move that far. Also heroes have a movement stat, they don’t get their “Free Movement” value for every cube spent.
Excellent point - you would have to take hindering into account every time you leave an area that contains a villain's mini, not just for your first movement.
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Paul Militzke
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The Red Hood just shoots from his starting position and than moves 3 times by investing cubes plus his movement bonus. Than he is ready to give full fire on bane - explosive batterang plus his red ranged one and you still have cubes to do rerolls.

No?
 
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Udo Siebert
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In the 1st scenario you are right. But if the villain want to activate Bane he has to spend 7 energy. That's not a wise decision. And it's not that difficult for the heroes to get to him in 2nd turn.
With the 2nd scenario and Penguin it's easy for the heroes to jump from the barrels to him with parcour ability.
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zachary rucker
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As others said, if the heroes do this but lose each time, they should realize it's not a good strategy.

You say "there's no reason not to" but losing is a pretty good reason to not do something. Sugguest they try the first scenario again and this time IGNORE Bane. See how it changes. Do it again, and let them know that this time they should focus on completing one objective EACH round. If they can't, they should try to set up to make sure they can next round.

This game is about OBJECTIVES, not knocking out the biggest villain om the board.
 
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BG.EXE
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Endrusacos wrote:
The Red Hood just shoots from his starting position and than moves 3 times by investing cubes plus his movement bonus. Than he is ready to give full fire on bane - explosive batterang plus his red ranged one and you still have cubes to do rerolls.

No?

Bane is surrounded by the “walls” of the subway vehicle at the start. Plus the only way to have LoS to the inside of the subway vehicle is to be in an adjacent space with an orange line. The subway cars don’t have LoS markers to target them from far away, the only way to get LoS inside is to be adjacent to their orange lines or to be physically inside the car.
 
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Paul Militzke
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Never said they lost. And they didnt.


yipiyip wrote:
As others said, if the heroes do this but lose each time, they should realize it's not a good strategy.

You say "there's no reason not to" but losing is a pretty good reason to not do something. Sugguest they try the first scenario again and this time IGNORE Bane. See how it changes. Do it again, and let them know that this time they should focus on completing one objective EACH round. If they can't, they should try to set up to make sure they can next round.

This game is about OBJECTIVES, not knocking out the biggest villain om the board.
 
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Paul Militzke
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Totaly true, but in my example the red hood just walked in and shot from exactly that orange line.

boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
Endrusacos wrote:
The Red Hood just shoots from his starting position and than moves 3 times by investing cubes plus his movement bonus. Than he is ready to give full fire on bane - explosive batterang plus his red ranged one and you still have cubes to do rerolls.

No?

Bane is surrounded by the “walls” of the subway vehicle at the start. Plus the only way to have LoS to the inside of the subway vehicle is to be in an adjacent space with an orange line. The subway cars don’t have LoS markers to target them from far away, the only way to get LoS inside is to be adjacent to their orange lines or to be physically inside the car.
 
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BG.EXE
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That’s all the way across the map, and with the minigun he has no movement bonus. He either put more cubes in movement than exertion allows, or ignored hindering and rough terrain. I only have a picture of the map on hand but I believe it’s 6 spaces of movement from where Red Hood starts to the open back of the train car, or 5 to get inside the car to have LoS on Bane, but two of those are across rough terrain. And again that’s ignoring hindering from enemies on the map.

Even without the minigun that doesn’t add up.

Edit: Found the setup page for this scenario in a Monolith video. There’s a door added to the subway from the first picture I had found, so the fastest way to have LoS on Bane is 5 spaces of movement to that side door, 2 of which are hindered by 1. I can’t recall if the escalator requires a climb, I would guess not.

So base movement 2, max exertion 4, required movement 7. I think someone got a free space by mistake. You could do it with Pushing Limits... but if someone did that I would just ensure Red Hood was neutralized for the rest of the game. Free hero!
 
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Matthew Burgess
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Endrusacos wrote:
Never said they lost. And they didnt.


yipiyip wrote:
As others said, if the heroes do this but lose each time, they should realize it's not a good strategy.

You say "there's no reason not to" but losing is a pretty good reason to not do something. Sugguest they try the first scenario again and this time IGNORE Bane. See how it changes. Do it again, and let them know that this time they should focus on completing one objective EACH round. If they can't, they should try to set up to make sure they can next round.

This game is about OBJECTIVES, not knocking out the biggest villain om the board.


I guess we were thrown by:

Endrusacos wrote:
I didn't loos eat all times, but still it seems pretty depressing to get your main character ripped appart all the time before you can use him because it just makes sense for the heroes to go for it.

For my part, I just assumed that if you didn't lose, they must have.
 
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zachary rucker
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Endrusacos wrote:
Never said they lost. And they didnt.


yipiyip wrote:
As others said, if the heroes do this but lose each time, they should realize it's not a good strategy.

You say "there's no reason not to" but losing is a pretty good reason to not do something. Sugguest they try the first scenario again and this time IGNORE Bane. See how it changes. Do it again, and let them know that this time they should focus on completing one objective EACH round. If they can't, they should try to set up to make sure they can next round.

This game is about OBJECTIVES, not knocking out the biggest villain om the board.


Your post from earlier has some severe spelling/grammar mistakes, which made me read as if you meant you never lost (implying the heroes never won).
 
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Paul Militzke
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I could't find a reason yet to even grab the minigun but in my example, red hood just shoots the first enemy in his way and than walks. In turn 2 he can give bane full nuts. Or if you really want to push it, you can let renee shoot the enemy who is in the way and than let red hood walk and shoot.


boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
That’s all the way across the map, and with the minigun he has no movement bonus. He either put more cubes in movement than exertion allows, or ignored hindering and rough terrain. I only have a picture of the map on hand but I believe it’s 6 spaces of movement from where Red Hood starts to the open back of the train car, or 5 to get inside the car to have LoS on Bane, but two of those are across rough terrain. And again that’s ignoring hindering from enemies on the map.

Even without the minigun that doesn’t add up.
 
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BG.EXE
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I did work out a way to do it on turn 1 using Pushing Limits, but it really doesn’t seem worth it. Bane is an okay figure, but if Red Hood moved that far alone I would just lock him down with thugs for the whole game. Easy hero neutralized!
 
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Paul Militzke
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Ya thats my fault. Sorry guys. My grammar is the only thing that sucks even more than my dice rolling skills.


yipiyip wrote:
Endrusacos wrote:
Never said they lost. And they didnt.


yipiyip wrote:
As others said, if the heroes do this but lose each time, they should realize it's not a good strategy.

You say "there's no reason not to" but losing is a pretty good reason to not do something. Sugguest they try the first scenario again and this time IGNORE Bane. See how it changes. Do it again, and let them know that this time they should focus on completing one objective EACH round. If they can't, they should try to set up to make sure they can next round.

This game is about OBJECTIVES, not knocking out the biggest villain om the board.


Your post from earlier has some severe spelling/grammar mistakes, which made me read as if you meant you never lost (implying the heroes never won).
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Matthew Burgess
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Endrusacos wrote:
I could't find a reason yet to even grab the minigun but in my example, red hood just shoots the first enemy in his way and than walks. In turn 2 he can give bane full nuts. Or if you really want to push it, you can let renee shoot the enemy who is in the way and than let red hood walk and shoot.


I thought you said you other players were taking out Bane before you even get a chance to activate him?

Endrusacos wrote:
...it seems pretty depressing to get your main character ripped appart all the time before you can use him because it just makes sense for the heroes to go for it.

All this time I thought we were trying to resolve why you main villain was getting killed before you even took a turn (as the Villain). Was this wrong?
 
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Matthew Burgess
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
I did work out a way to do it on turn 1 using Pushing Limits, but it really doesn’t seem worth it. Bane is an okay figure, but if Red Hood moved that far alone I would just lock him down with thugs for the whole game. Easy hero neutralized!
This is what I was thinking.

If Red Hood commits that much that quickly, and is now deep in enemy territory, and alone, as the villain I'm doing my best to make sure he doesn't get the chance to activate again!!
 
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Matthew Burgess
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
That’s all the way across the map, and with the minigun he has no movement bonus. He either put more cubes in movement than exertion allows, or ignored hindering and rough terrain. I only have a picture of the map on hand but I believe it’s 6 spaces of movement from where Red Hood starts to the open back of the train car, or 5 to get inside the car to have LoS on Bane, but two of those are across rough terrain. And again that’s ignoring hindering from enemies on the map.

Even without the minigun that doesn’t add up.

Edit: Found the setup page for this scenario in a Monolith video. There’s a door added to the subway from the first picture I had found, so the fastest way to have LoS on Bane is 5 spaces of movement to that side door, 2 of which are hindered by 1. I can’t recall if the escalator requires a climb, I would guess not.

So base movement 2, max exertion 4, required movement 7. I think someone got a free space by mistake. You could do it with Pushing Limits... but if someone did that I would just ensure Red Hood was neutralized for the rest of the game. Free hero!

Are you suggesting you need all those cubes for movement? Are there enough cubes left to take out all of Bane's lives, if the villain still has complete defence and rerolls left?
 
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Paul Militzke
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Well basically you are saying it is not worth it.
Our games showed that it is very powerful and worth the investment at the beginning. So maby I just have to play a better villan than, but its just not fun having your villan gets killed so fast and even when I am winning its like bane and penguin died but some thugs were able to prevent batman and batgirl and batwoman from completing their mission...
 
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Paul Militzke
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Wow a door added? I didnt see that in my scenario book! Thats intetesting...could you link the Video please?

mattpburgess wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
That’s all the way across the map, and with the minigun he has no movement bonus. He either put more cubes in movement than exertion allows, or ignored hindering and rough terrain. I only have a picture of the map on hand but I believe it’s 6 spaces of movement from where Red Hood starts to the open back of the train car, or 5 to get inside the car to have LoS on Bane, but two of those are across rough terrain. And again that’s ignoring hindering from enemies on the map.

Even without the minigun that doesn’t add up.

Edit: Found the setup page for this scenario in a Monolith video. There’s a door added to the subway from the first picture I had found, so the fastest way to have LoS on Bane is 5 spaces of movement to that side door, 2 of which are hindered by 1. I can’t recall if the escalator requires a climb, I would guess not.

So base movement 2, max exertion 4, required movement 7. I think someone got a free space by mistake. You could do it with Pushing Limits... but if someone did that I would just ensure Red Hood was neutralized for the rest of the game. Free hero!

Are you suggesting you need all those cubes for movement? Are there enough cubes left to take out all of Bane's lives, if the villain still has complete defence and rerolls left?
 
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