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Subject: Core box and the Chalice Dungeon rss

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Erich Huelsemann
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we get the core box which is campaign focused, and it seems like all the stretch goals are for the chalice Dungeon? does anybody know if these can be used in the campaign also? or maybe I'm wrong?
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BG.EXE
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They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.
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Greg Mahler
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.


Weird. That's like shooting yourself in the foot right at the start of the race.
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Alek P.
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tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.


Weird. That's like shooting yourself in the foot right at the start of the race.


This is so easy to change, I am reluctant to call this homeruling.
 
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BG.EXE
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tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.


Weird. That's like shooting yourself in the foot right at the start of the race.

I don’t see it that way. It lets them curate a particular theme, difficulty, and experience on a per chapter basis. Heck, Gloomhaven has static spawns in every scenario. And a static map.
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Paul Liolio
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I'm already thinking up ideas to get other enemies into the game.

For example, one extremely simple way is, instead of using the max 4 of any given campaign enemy, use three of that enemy and one of another enemy you deem appropriate from a comparable tier. So instead of 4 Yharnam mobs, why not throw in a rabid dog or two?

If they don't end the campaign with something that lets mixing happen, it should be pretty easy to do without causing much imbalance.
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Greg Mahler
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.


Weird. That's like shooting yourself in the foot right at the start of the race.

I don’t see it that way. It lets them curate a particular theme, difficulty, and experience on a per chapter basis. Heck, Gloomhaven has static spawns in every scenario. And a static map.


Apples and oranges. Gloomhaven has no monsters that I am aware of that do not show up at some point in the campaign.

It would be like if Isaac put in some monsters and bosses that were only for the random dungeon generator mode and not the campaign.

Weird, as I said.

As a designer, I NEVER want to limit the components to a single mode but would rather them be as useful as physically possible.

So that is exactly why doing so is like shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't do that, you can run the race better and perhaps win.
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Paul Glickman
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No, you can’t, and it’s very clever. It severely limits how many minis you need on the table at once and gives a thematic and mechanic cohesive theme to every campaign chapter, while leaving a lot of room for “random encounters” for people who want them.
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BG.EXE
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tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.


Weird. That's like shooting yourself in the foot right at the start of the race.

I don’t see it that way. It lets them curate a particular theme, difficulty, and experience on a per chapter basis. Heck, Gloomhaven has static spawns in every scenario. And a static map.


Apples and oranges. Gloomhaven has no monsters that I am aware of that do not show up at some point in the campaign.

It would be like if Isaac put in some monsters and bosses that were only for the random dungeon generator mode and not the campaign.

Weird, as I said.

As a designer, I NEVER want to limit the components to a single mode but would rather them be as useful as physically possible.

So that is exactly why doing so is like shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't do that, you can run the race better and perhaps win.

To each their own. KDM has components I have never even seen across multiple campaigns; where a campaign is 30 “years” and a year is about two to four hours of real time. I’m excited for how much more there is to discover! Quodd Heroes has components only used in certain modes. Tons of games with scenarios have pieces specific to certain scenarios. Black Rose Wars, Brook City... actually heck Arcadia Quest.

It would actually be weirder to have random enemies for every chapter.
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Greg Mahler
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Paul G wrote:
No, you can’t, and it’s very clever. It severely limits how many minis you need on the table at once and gives a thematic and mechanic cohesive theme to every campaign chapter, while leaving a lot of room for “random encounters” for people who want them.


As long as all the enemies/bosses may be used in the Chalice Dungeon, then it’s not as big a deal. I’m fine with limiting what is in the campaign for more structure and story. But I don’t want a split where some enemies/bosses only work for the campaigns and not the chalice.
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Greg Mahler
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boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
tyk567 wrote:
boardgamesdotEXE wrote:
They cannot be used in the campaign. Every chapter has 3 pre-determined enemies. Confirmed in the comments by CMON staff.


Weird. That's like shooting yourself in the foot right at the start of the race.

I don’t see it that way. It lets them curate a particular theme, difficulty, and experience on a per chapter basis. Heck, Gloomhaven has static spawns in every scenario. And a static map.


Apples and oranges. Gloomhaven has no monsters that I am aware of that do not show up at some point in the campaign.

It would be like if Isaac put in some monsters and bosses that were only for the random dungeon generator mode and not the campaign.

Weird, as I said.

As a designer, I NEVER want to limit the components to a single mode but would rather them be as useful as physically possible.

So that is exactly why doing so is like shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't do that, you can run the race better and perhaps win.

To each their own. KDM has components I have never even seen across multiple campaigns; where a campaign is 30 “years” and a year is about two to four hours of real time. I’m excited for how much more there is to discover! Quodd Heroes has components only used in certain modes. Tons of games with scenarios have pieces specific to certain scenarios. Black Rose Wars, Brook City... actually heck Arcadia Quest.

It would actually be weirder to have random enemies for every chapter.


Again “never seen” is different than “can’t be used”...

I’m out.
 
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Paul Glickman
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Why not? About the split. I’d be down, though I’d be happy either way. I want structured campaign and random chalice (if I end up keeping my pledge), and that’s what’s important to me.
 
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Greg Mahler
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Paul G wrote:
Why not? About the split. I’d be down, though I’d be happy either way. I want structured campaign and random chalice (if I end up keeping my pledge), and that’s what’s important to me.


Technically I’m down with however they do it (we have to be since we have no control over the design) and will just do house rules if I see a missed opportunity. It may end up being better than what I currently think.
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Matthew Freilich
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It makes me think of how Fireteam Zero handled the SG enemies. You essentially would swap out the spawns 1 for 1 with whatever enemy type was supposed to be used in that mission. You could easily use SG monsters from the same "family" but there were still restrictions on the level of monster you could replace. It was a nice system, and allowed you to use anything from your collection anywhere.
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Paul Liolio
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I just want to add that when Dark Souls was doing its campaign, everyone was like 'even if this is bad, we'll just houserule it to be good, we can count on this community!'. Well it came out, the best house rule just gave you more souls to start with and more item gets from the lottery, and it was still an unpleasant game.

I am no longer confident that we can easily house rule it. So whatever issues there are, I hope they intentionally leave it in a way where we can easily house rule. Campaign sounds fun, but I'll want to do that maybe once or twice, but I'll definitely want to be able to play over and over and over, without the story.
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Paul Glickman
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I mean... it seems every chapter has a different set of basic core mechanics, like the "Enraged" mechanic. It'll be extremely difficult to replace one Enrage enemy with whatever Chalice mechanic there is. Probably.
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Greg Mahler
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Polioliolio wrote:
I just want to add that when Dark Souls was doing its campaign, everyone was like 'even if this is bad, we'll just houserule it to be good, we can count on this community!'. Well it came out, the best house rule just gave you more souls to start with and more item gets from the lottery, and it was still an unpleasant game.

I am no longer confident that we can easily house rule it. So whatever issues there are, I hope they intentionally leave it in a way where we can easily house rule. Campaign sounds fun, but I'll want to do that maybe once or twice, but I'll definitely want to be able to play over and over and over, without the story.


I’m very confident that we could. In the case of Dark Souls, it just wasn’t needed. People were trying to fix stuff that wasn’t broken. That’s why most of the variants failed.
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Paul Liolio
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tyk567 wrote:
Polioliolio wrote:
I just want to add that when Dark Souls was doing its campaign, everyone was like 'even if this is bad, we'll just houserule it to be good, we can count on this community!'. Well it came out, the best house rule just gave you more souls to start with and more item gets from the lottery, and it was still an unpleasant game.

I am no longer confident that we can easily house rule it. So whatever issues there are, I hope they intentionally leave it in a way where we can easily house rule. Campaign sounds fun, but I'll want to do that maybe once or twice, but I'll definitely want to be able to play over and over and over, without the story.


I’m very confident that we could. In the case of Dark Souls, it just wasn’t needed. People were trying to fix stuff that wasn’t broken. That’s why most of the variants failed.


I would say the variants failed because you can only go so far with game design that isn't fun enough, without going completely back to the drawing board with it, and the components are already designed in a way that makes it difficult to repurpose.

I should have more faith here, I suppose. Okay, I think my biggest worry is that everything that's designed around the campaign is going to be too difficult to parse when you want to just have fun with all the components together. I'm afraid the campaign is going to be either not fun, or not very replayable, and then half the game we got is designed into a corner. That's my fear, rational or not.
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Ares Kram
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About the Houserules, we can't count on them to fix every problem. Massive Darkness is a example, at least to me. The progression of that game feels just broken.

So, for mechanics, difficulty, strategy, etc... I hope this game is as good as it looks, but if its not, we can't just be sure we'll fix it. On the other hand, when talking about the use of different enemies, I wish CMON would change their minds and classify enemies in tiers/level of treat/danger. So after you finish the campaign properly*, you'd be able to change enemies at your wish. In this case, If CMON won't do it, I see it as an easy task for the community.

* Maybe they won't encourage changing enemies for narrative purposes. Maybe story cards make reference to the enemies that shows up each mission and narrative would be affected.
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Nicolas Tremblay
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Areskram wrote:

* Maybe they won't encourage changing enemies for narrative purposes. Maybe story cards make reference to the enemies that shows up each mission and narrative would be affected.


This was exactly what they said when asked. And that in addition the specific enemies that show up have unique powers and abilities and actions based on the campaign.

If that's the case, then to allow whatever enemies people want, they'd have to make versions of EVERY enemy that fit with the above, OR make everything generic enough that it works. Neither of which are reasonable solutions.

 
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Marcelo Fiuza
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I'm more worried about not being able to use enemies from the addons on Chalice Dungeons. They only work on their respective campaign and could add a lot of variety on Chalice Dungeons.
 
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Paul Liolio
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Daimortus wrote:
Areskram wrote:

* Maybe they won't encourage changing enemies for narrative purposes. Maybe story cards make reference to the enemies that shows up each mission and narrative would be affected.


This was exactly what they said when asked. And that in addition the specific enemies that show up have unique powers and abilities and actions based on the campaign.

If that's the case, then to allow whatever enemies people want, they'd have to make versions of EVERY enemy that fit with the above, OR make everything generic enough that it works. Neither of which are reasonable solutions.



I don't see why you can't just add a little spawn point to a tile or two, and spawn an 'extra' enemy of your choice, in addition to the campaign selection.

It's been confirmed that they have no plans to add enemies from add ons into the chalice dungeons. They may have said that because they're going to surprise us with a stretch goal, or who knows what, or they just don't care. I'm not giving up on this one, this needs to happen, and if it doesn't, it'll be a bitter disappointment, but also, it'll have to be houseruled for sure.
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Ben Turner
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I guess by having all the KS exclusive extra minis in an KS exclusive random-monster dungeon, they still have a "complete" game to sell at retail.

E.g. your not going to get into the spot Blood Rage did with the retail experience having fewer monsters than the KS experience. Your just going to have the 3-4 scenarios, but no chalice dungeon.

(ok, you'll be missing a couple of hunter variants, but otherwise you can still buy "the same game" as others have)

It's a nicer way to bisect off the KS exclusives into their own "product", but equally as someone who is more interested in the episodic story-driven games, does mean there are a lot of stretch goals in this that'll probably not hit the table for me.
 
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