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Wings of War: Famous Aces» Forums » General

Subject: Immelmann turns rss

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I've never seen a flying hogfish. I saw one gliding once, but never flying, not actually flying.
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I'll be honest, I don't know huge amounts about WWI aerial combat. That said, and after playing WOW, I was wondering whether Immelmann turns were a commonplace affair. From playing the game (OK, I know it's not reality and so on) it seems like one of the best options in a front firing only plane is to try to get you opponent in your sights, fly past them and then 'do an Immelmann' in the hope that they're still in line of sight when you've turned. Obviously, a sneaky opponent will anticipate this and try to either outdistance you or make a sharp turn, but Immelmann turns still seem like a pretty good plan.

I always understood (from watching films, not any kind of actual research, you understand) that Immelmann turns were rather dangerous and not to be attempted by the faint-hearted. If this is the case (tell me if I'm wrong) then perhaps players could be limited to a certain number of Immelmanns in a game, perhaps with three or more tokens which are discarded each time one is carried out. This would avoid the (non) strategy of two planes flying parallel in opposite directions, firing, carrying out Immelmanns then flying past each other again, and so on till one falls out of the sky.

Also, if some kind of player/character development were introduced (i.e. one 'Ace' point per game in which your team is victorious) then they could be used to increase the number of Immelmanns that could be used in a game along with other benefits such as the 'check's ammo before flying' advantage.
 
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Re:Immelmann turns
flyinghogfish (#39459),
I'm pulling this all from memory here, but as I recall, an Immelmann was perfomed by flying straight, then pulling up so as to fly straight upwards, then spinning 180 degrees and leveling out again. Now you're flying the other direction, but you do have a higher altitude than before. And also, simply from memory and what little I know of flying, that puts you in grave danger of stalling, so it would be a very risky move indeed. I agree; there should be more restrictions on using it in the game.
 
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I've never seen a flying hogfish. I saw one gliding once, but never flying, not actually flying.
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Re:Immelmann turns
divisionbyzorro (#39543),
That was my impression too. The question, then is how many turns an average game takes. Then you could figure out a decent percentage of that for how many Immelmanns you could carry out during a game. I've got a game on Friday night and I think we'll try this rule out, maybe with three tokens. That makes it an opportunity to hang onto and use in either a very good or a ver bad situation when the maneuver will give you the opportunity to get the drop on your opponent or save your skin.

Perhaps an addition would be to allow further Immelmanns but at the cost of a damage card - that way you can still push you aircraft if you need to but the stresses on the plane's body can take their toll - ignoring special damage results, I think. Again, given my comprehensive research of having watched a few films long ago, I get the impression that the planes were not designed for these extreme maneuvers and would suffer if pushed to hard.
 
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Re:Immelmann turns
flyinghogfish (#39556),I haven't got the game yet but i know alot about ww1 flight tactics, alot are still used today. The immelman is still used today in modern air combat but is a completely different menuever then it was in ww1. The immelmann in ww1 was performed when two planes would pass each other head-on the pilot would then pull straight up until the plane slows and is about to stall then he would give full rudder either left or right causing the tail of the plane to snap around. The plane now facing towards the ground would dive and be facing back at his apponant, allowing him to swing in behind him. As you might know it was named after an ace in ww1 named immelmann he would perform one immelmann menuever after another trying to get on the tail of his apponant, the menuever was stressful for the pilot but the bi-planes could handle the stresses real well. Immelmann had great success with this menuever. FYI todays immelmann turn has changed, rather than slowing the plane and doing full rudder to snap the tail of the plane the plane goes over the top. It then dives and rolls so its face up in the opposite direction as when it started. It changed because slowing your plane to stall speed is not a good idea in modern jet warfare where maintaining speed is much more important then a good position.
 
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John O'Haver PhoDOGrapher
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Re:Immelmann turns
Xasher (#39634),


That is a great explanation. The WW I version was invented by Max Immelman to gain altitude, reverse direction and a second firing pass on a slower less agile two-seater. Nothing I've read indicates it was complicated nor excessively stressful on the air frame. It just bled airspeeed down to zero limiting subsequent options. I suppose that if a pilot mistimed the reversal, an uncontrolled spin could result. As aircraft, including two-seaters got more powerful, hanging nearly motionless before the actual reversal and build up of airspeed was pretty damn risky versus other fighters and completely unnecessary as well in WW II and later. Any aerobatic piltos on the geek?
 
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Re:Immelmann turns
Xasher (#39634),

Oh yeah, I think that somewhere along the line the half-roll and diving version of the reversal became the Split-S. It might be possible that the G forces when pulling out to level after airspeed is regained could be stressful on the aircraft. (Yeah it is, I've pulled the wings off my plane in the PC game Flying Corps more than once doing it that way) but the altitude gaining version remained the Immellman. Surely there is an ex-fighter jockey on BGG somewhere.
 
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I've never seen a flying hogfish. I saw one gliding once, but never flying, not actually flying.
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Re:Immelmann turns
scribidinus (#39651),

It's good to have a reality check from someone in the know. My knowledge is sketchy at best, so thanks for the input.
 
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