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Subject: Individual Time Trial rss

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Asger Harding Granerud
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Hi all,

This variant was suggested by a friend, and I would like to hear your thoughts. Or even your tests if you do test it

INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL
- There is infinite room for riders in every square.
- All riders start in the frontmost lane.
- You are never affected by other riders, not even your own team mate. No slipstream is ever given.
- Exhaustion is not given as normal in this stage, instead: The rider that played the highest value card of the round, gains one exhaustion. If several riders are tied for highest card, they all gain one exhaustion.

Kind regards
Asger
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Ryan Keane
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Sounds good Asger. I will use these for the final stage of Tour de Romandie I'm working on. My only concern is that it makes the sprinters into better time trialists than rouleurs, since they can save their 9's until towards the end and thus until they play those they will never exceed, and rarely tie, the cards played by rouleurs. The length of the ITT stage and placement of any ascents/descents/tailwind/headwind would be a factor though. But I think it will work well with my FR28 variant and most likely your upcoming official expansion with different decks. Obviously it's not a super-exciting race, but an interesting option to insert within a Grand Tour.

For Tirreno-Adriatico ITT (Item for Geeklist "Tirreno-Adriatico 2019" ), I created rules that allow you to run the decks on auto-pilot for the final stage. So if you go into the ITT with too much exhaustion, you're more likely to lose time by getting unlucky draws, but I don't have to have players make decisions for what is otherwise a pretty boring stage.

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Asger Harding Granerud
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I’m worried that sprinters would be worse off because of their lower move total

Asger
 
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Guy
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AsgerSG wrote:
I’m worried that sprinters would be worse off because of their lower move total

Asger


So maybe Sprinters dont take exhaustion on ties?
 
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black dog
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AsgerSG wrote:

- Exhaustion is not given as normal in this stage, instead: The rider that played the highest value card of the round, gains one exhaustion. If several riders are tied for highest card, they all gain one exhaustion.

I like the simplicity of this rule.
Question : what if I play a 9 on an ascent ? Is it considered as a 9 or a 5 ? Same with a 2 on descent.
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Asger Harding Granerud
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PlanBee wrote:
So maybe Sprinters dont take exhaustion on ties?


Could be, but I'm not certain at all, so wouldn't add any extra rules until I had determined there was an issue.

yves_bgg wrote:
Question : what if I play a 9 on an ascent ? Is it considered as a 9 or a 5 ? Same with a 2 on descent.


My gut reaction is that it should be the actual face value, not the modified value. However I can see advantages both ways.

Asger
 
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Ryan Keane
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AsgerSG wrote:
I’m worried that sprinters would be worse off because of their lower move total

Asger


Only if the ITT stage is around standard length of 69-70 spaces. Flamme Rouge: Team Trial and most other time trial stage designs are in the 50-60 range, where the sprinter's lower total energy becomes less a disadvantage or even an advantage.

E.g. to do a 50 space ITT, sprinter needs minimum 8 turns (9,9,9,5,5,5,4,4), while rouleur needs minimum 9 turns (7,7,7,6,6,6,5,5,4), and the rouleur is almost guaranteed to take exhaustion the first 5 turns.
 
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Ryan Keane
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AsgerSG wrote:

yves_bgg wrote:
Question : what if I play a 9 on an ascent ? Is it considered as a 9 or a 5 ? Same with a 2 on descent.


My gut reaction is that it should be the actual face value, not the modified value. However I can see advantages both ways.

Asger


Good point Yves. I think I will try it with actual movement, rather than face value. Partly because that's a lot easier to interpret with my specialist decks, where some cards allow movement of 6 or 7 through ascents and others are reduced below 5.

Whichever way, it does create some weird asynchronous situations when terrain gets in the picture. E.g. rider A is on the last space of an ascent, while rider B is one space ahead on the first space of a descent. A plays 3 and moves 3; B plays 2 and moves 5. Who takes the exhaustion? The one that played the higher card (A), moved the most (B), or thematically was working the hardest (A)? But why are we comparing riders in 2 different places, since B would have had to work hard the turn before to get over the ascent?
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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Ryan, if you're shortening the stage without reducing the decks (as per your example), you're doing something "wrong" if you ask me

Face value is the actual energy used by that rider. Distance moved is just distance moved, not energy spent. You can spend 2 or 9 and move the exact same distance.

I am not sure shortening the route would work though. With new custom riders it is complicated to reduce starting energy decks, because of the asymmetry. On the other hand these stages aren't as interesting and I'd like them to finish faster.

Regards
Asger
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black dog
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AsgerSG wrote:
Ryan, if you're shortening the stage without reducing the decks (as per your example), you're doing something "wrong" if you ask me

Well, I think the exact contrary : if all the riders have to ride 50 spaces with 10 cards granting them 50 points, they will all finish at the same time, no ?
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Ryan Keane
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AsgerSG wrote:
Ryan, if you're shortening the stage without reducing the decks (as per your example), you're doing something "wrong" if you ask me

Face value is the actual energy used by that rider. Distance moved is just distance moved, not energy spent. You can spend 2 or 9 and move the exact same distance.

I am not sure shortening the route would work though. With new custom riders it is complicated to reduce starting energy decks, because of the asymmetry. On the other hand these stages aren't as interesting and I'd like them to finish faster.

Regards
Asger


Yeah, I know I'm doing it "wrong". But as you said, with asymmetric decks it's complicated, as I don't have multiples of 3 of each card in many of the decks. I could come up with more rules about how to reduce them roughly equally, but instead I just play the shorter stages with full decks and everybody goes full steam.

But point taken - I will make my Romandie ITT stage 69 spaces. I think the fact that sprinters will need minimum 15 turns but much less likely to take exhaustion will even them out. I'll be interested to see if my time trialist specialist deck does consistently the best (probably only if the ITT is pan-flat).
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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yves_bgg wrote:
AsgerSG wrote:
Ryan, if you're shortening the stage without reducing the decks (as per your example), you're doing something "wrong" if you ask me

Well, I think the exact contrary : if all the riders have to ride 50 spaces with 10 cards granting them 50 points, they will all finish at the same time, no ?


Yves, have you checked the official TTT that is linked by Ryan above?

The differentiation in finish of the ITT will be based on starting exhaustion, exhaustion gained, and luck of the draw. Plus the asymmetric decks.

Asger
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Asger Harding Granerud
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Ryan Keane wrote:

But point taken - I will make my Romandie ITT stage 69 spaces. I think the fact that sprinters will need minimum 15 turns but much less likely to take exhaustion will even them out. I'll be interested to see if my time trialist specialist deck does consistently the best (probably only if the ITT is pan-flat).


I am coming to the same conclusion, that the 69 space race is probably the easiest solution, when asymmetric decks are involved.

Asger
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Ryan Keane
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yves_bgg wrote:
AsgerSG wrote:
Ryan, if you're shortening the stage without reducing the decks (as per your example), you're doing something "wrong" if you ask me

Well, I think the exact contrary : if all the riders have to ride 50 spaces with 10 cards granting them 50 points, they will all finish at the same time, no ?


I see your point - with a full deck but short stage, if a sprinter discards a 9, he may not see it again before the race ends, which is an interesting decision space.

One key is how much exhaustion they each have at the start, and how much they accumulate during the race with these rules. That's why I think ITT's are only (marginally) interesting at or near the end of a tour. Reducing the deck, but leaving all the starting exhaustion, for a 50-space ITT, increased the chance of bad draws.

Headwind rules (drawing 3 each turn) also increases the chance of bad draws, so that's another aspect to incorporate into ITT's. For the Tirreno stage, I tried first half tailwind, second half headwind.
 
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black dog
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Ok, let's go for 69 and the problem is solved.
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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We should probably try it where the highest rouleur is exhausted AND the highest sprinteur. Not least to ensure you can’t actually coordinate your two riders.

Asger
 
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black dog
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AsgerSG wrote:
We should probably try it where the highest rouleur is exhausted AND the highest sprinteur. Not least to ensure you can’t actually coordinate your two riders.

Asger

Exactly what I thought. You read in my mind Asger.

Because if not, with higher numbers of players, the Rouleur will probably never get exhaustion card.
 
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