Recommend
27 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

The Coin Tribes' Revolt: Boudica's Rebellion Against Rome» Forums » News

Subject: v2.0 Released! rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Iyidin Kyeimo
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I keep tweaking and re-tweaking. Time to stop and get it out into the wild!

I'm holding off uploading the files to BGG for a little while, just to get past the glaring errors and any major issues people no doubt will find. Hence the google drive links..

New Rulebook
The rulebook has been thoroughly revamped with updated rules and new examples.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LOlFNDKOs_BsQMqAbYJyoZfy6Q...

New pnp file
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dewZri8zCNRE74N-NfLBvpGlM9...

I’ve made a rather large file because it contains multiple options. There are only really 8 poker cards, 12 mini-cards, 7 tokens and 18 dice required to play the game (which includes player aids+bots, but I’ve included both 3x3 or 4-up layouts for whichever people prefer, along with a larger-sized board if portability isn’t your primary concern.

It turns out I wasn’t ambitious enough first time round, and have found that it is possible to have the round track and action selection grid alongside the regions all within the 2x2 poker-card sized map. This is actually my prefered way of doing it as it allows me to keep it super portable. However, I realise that some people might prefer a larger board (particularly if playing the 4-player version) or wanting to use larger (16mm) dice. The only difference being the addition of a discard slot on the larger board. Both sizes use the same sized tokens for simplicity.

I decided it was foolish to have multiple different art styles out there so I’ve removed the background texture to make my preferred design less busy and hopefully satisfy people who found the other option I suggested more readable.

Note: the round tracker has each faction's victory condition marked in case people want to use tokens (coloured cubes etc?) to track the scores, but this isn't necessary.


What’s changed?

For those new to the game, don’t worry about this, but for those that already know the game, here are the brief notes about the changes I’ve made and why:

1) Changed the victory conditions. I’ve tried to make each victory condition more dependant on other factions to increase the interactivity between them. I’m slightly worried about the wordiness of the Trinovantes’ condition, but hopefully it’s understandable.

2) Swapped the colour of Trinovantes and Catuvellauni. This may seem annoyingly counter-intuitive, but I’ve been reading Manda Scott’s Boudica series, which mentions the Trinovantes being associated with yellow. The initial assignment was mostly arbitrary, so I felt it was better to use a known historical association where I can. Apologies if it takes a while to switch over in your head, it took me a while too.

3) Changed Opposition to Defiance. I initially changed Support to Sympathy because I was shortening the term and wanted to make them more distinctly different at a distance than Sup/Opp. Changing Opposition as well moves away completely from the usual GMT terms. Plus, I prefer it..

4) Regions altered. The original regions were linked to the 2x2 card grid. This wasn’t historically accurate, but convenient due to the card flipping mechanic for destroyed cities. With tokens, this no longer matters so I’ve changed the regions to more accurately reflect the historical territories. This is not just a cosmetic change as it adds a direct connection between Verulamium and Camulodunum, thus shrinking the board slightly. The population numbers have also been tweaked to work better with the updated victory conditions.

5) Additional, and modified, events. I’ve added more events for greater variety, and tweaked/switched around the existing ones slightly in an effort to make them slightly more thematically tied. They are now officially shuffle-able mini-cards (hooray!)

6) Periods tweaked. Taking a leaf from Liberty or Death, I’ve increased each period by two rounds at the start during which a reckoning cannot take place. This prevents the double-reckoning one-two punch. To compensate for the added length, the number of periods has been reduced by one to four, so the game is only slightly longer at a maximum of 24 rounds rather than 20.

7) Actions tweaked. Some of the bonus actions have been tweaked slightly to make them relevant more often.
Forts tightened up. Forts are now limited, not every faction can fortify in a region so there is more competition.

8) Tie-breaks improved. A minor point, but tie-breaks are now always determined with one die roll, and the initial starting initiative is much simpler to set.

9) Advanced setup. New rules (in appendix) for a variable setup and altering the difficulty level for greater replayability.

10) Bot rules. Needs lots of testing and changing no doubt, but bots are now in the game! Using these is undoubtedly going to throw up the most problems with the new version. I’m going to put together a video shortly running through a few turns to give people a better idea of how to run them. I still feel they need to be slightly harder, but all efforts to do so thus far have gone too far and made them impossible to beat, so this will have to do for now.


So, please go ahead and download, make, and play the updated game. Find out if I've completely ruined the original...

Looking forward to any questions, comments, and feedback!
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benoit
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess I know what I'll be building this weekend !
A huge thanks to you and all the love you have been putting in the game despite the disappointment of not being published (yet).
I will be trying the game solo so I will try to give you feedback at some point.


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Robinson
United Kingdom
Neston
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
konstantinos hasopouolos
Greece
flag msg tools
As a huge fan of your game i will play-test it thoroughly and will send you my feedback.

Looking forward to it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iyidin Kyeimo
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
camelspotter wrote:
As a huge fan of your game i will play-test it thoroughly and will send you my feedback.

Looking forward to it.

Thanks everyone, looking forward to your thoughts!

Steven, I'll put together a copy for you this week. Would you prefer a mini bi-fold board or double-sized map on 4xboards that need to be assembled?

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
konstantinos hasopouolos
Greece
flag msg tools
Went on and tweeked the the event cards a bit to give more theme and more graphic design, although i do like them as is, Here is a sample.

The olb box from the card version in the background.



Also i made some custom intact and razed city tokens for the board.



As for the AI, i tried making a couple of turns and from the get-go i fell on some not so clear decision-making.

exc. Iceni makes the first move of the game, so event and rally is a no-go,
so we head to march. They have 4 at he beginning so we proceed, the cannot move 3+ but they can march to Camulodunum as it is in rebel control by the trinovates. Ending with +2 in rebel control means +2 control difference from the Non-rebel faction or units? if the 2nd applies then neither March is viable so they proceed in Battle but there is no Romans nor Catuvelauni on their area so neither battle happens. Tnen what?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Robinson
United Kingdom
Neston
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Iyidin Kyeimo
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


Could I take the four boards please.

Send me a DM/e-mail when it's sorted. I also feel I should put some cash your way for the efforts so put a PayPal link in there if you have an account
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iyidin Kyeimo
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
camelspotter wrote:
Went on and tweeked the the event cards a bit to give more theme and more graphic design, although i do like them as is, Here is a sample.

The olb box from the card version in the background.



Also i made some custom intact and razed city tokens for the board.
This is amazing, love your version! One of the great joys of this has been seeing other people pour their creativity into it as well..

camelspotter wrote:

As for the AI, i tried making a couple of turns and from the get-go i fell on some not so clear decision-making.

exc. Iceni makes the first move of the game, so event and rally is a no-go,
so we head to march. They have 4 at he beginning so we proceed, the cannot move 3+ but they can march to Camulodunum as it is in rebel control by the trinovates. Ending with +2 in rebel control means +2 control difference from the Non-rebel faction or units? if the 2nd applies then neither March is viable so they proceed in Battle but there is no Romans nor Catuvelauni on their area so neither battle happens. Tnen what?
Onto the AI..

In your game Iceni were up first. I'll assume the event doesn't fulfill either of their conditions and you rolled either a 1 or a 2 on the Bot die, or else they would have Rallied (as the 4 units they start with are less than 2+d6 when the d6 is 3, 4, 5, or 6).

So, move on to March. The Iceni do have 3 or more units in one or more regions so it looks like they can take this action.

If the Bot die showed a 2: The Camulodunum region is closest to neutral, and if they March 2 units from the non-city region to Camulodunum, this results in having 2+ units in Trinovantes (rebel) control there, so fulfills the second condition. Therefore, they take this action. Simple... relatively!

If the Bot die showed a 1: Both Camulodunum and Londinium have two non-rebel units. Therefore you should use a tie-break roll to determine which to choose. If Camuladunum is chosen, proceed as before. However, Londinium is non viable as this wouldn't result in 3+ moving, or 2+ units moving to rebel control.

In the current version, as written, there is half a chance of choosing Londinium. This is a problem! The Bot would not execute this March, and with no Battle possible, the Iceni would then pass, which is definitely sub-optimal for an opening move...

I've changed the rules to say that during tie-breakers, only consider viable options. This necessitates more checking, but should eliminate dead ends like this.

I've also updated the text on the cards to be more descriptive regarding the tests. "2+ in rebel control" is supposed to mean have 2+ units in a rebel controlled region.. (i.e. Conditions that allow them to Raze, which they would go on to do in this scenario). I tried to keep the text minimal, but went too far. Hope that make things clearer.

Will update the files shortly.

I'll try to do a video of some Bot actions soon as well, but been busy making some copies to take to the UK Games Expo..
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Broughton
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Hi LJP I came to the Games expo on Saturday, my daughter bought a sticker and then I came back at the end of the day and was very glad to buy a copy of the smaller version.

I'm so pleased with it, it took me a while to learn it and it's been really worth it. I've enjoyed playing the bots, the AI is straight forward and effective. I've had issues elaborating on the bot moves which have cost me the game a few times as I like to take the opportunity to pass on a bot's go if the upcoming event card will be super useful for them... Maybe there's a straightforward addition to the AI that can be applied in the event decision though it does make it very hard to beat them.

I have a few questions and they're either things I've misunderstood or maybe things that are missing explicitly from the rules but are probably implied and I'm just not joining the dots:

(I'll go through in order of rule book as that's how I've made my notes)

1) Forts: Does entering a fort gain that faction an extra 2 units to be used when attacking or is it simply just 2 extra influence for the region?

2) Initiative Ties: What about a tie for a faction who is re-rolling as part of an event card clean up instruction, how do these rolls compare to the passed dice and the already rolled inactive dice? (my suggestion is that they have least priority, though I'm interested in how you would resolve this)

3) March: (just a note really) it would help if it says "move up to 2 units..." in the first sentence rather than just "move units" - I know it does get to that eventually but you have to read about all the mechanics before you get to the constraints on how many to move and I think it would help those reading the rules for the first time.

4) March: (another note) it says If performing an "Action in two regions", two different Regions must be chosen as the source - I read that as you must take both actions and it wasn't until I read 3.3 that I realised you can take a partial action and what was really meant here is - When taking Actions in two Regions and performing both actions then each move action must be performed from different source regions. (I hope I'm right)

5) Suppress: in the example the Romans move on of the Trinovantes to an adjacent region but they also get put into a fort - I can't see why that would be the case.

6) Inspire: I think I've worked this out now but I'll ask anyway. Is the bonus restricted to the region where there is an Iceni unit or can an Iceni unit inspire a tribe unit from another/adjacent region? I think now that it's got to be the same region, what threw me was the Iceni BOT says that the bonus shouldn't loose rebel control and I couldn't see how that could happen in the same region so started to wonder if the action could take place across regions. (I see I'm wrong though because a Trinovante could just have 1 unit in a fort in the same region and if they were inspired then the increased influence from the fort would be lost) - Just a sanity check.

7) Raze: can this bonus take place even if rebel control is lost through performing it (I'm assuming yes but thought I'd double check)

8) Events: Although you can't retain a second card without discarding the first, is it still ok to play an event immediately whilst retaining a card? (I'm assuming so)

9) Event card "shifting alliances": can an Iceni unit enter a fort as part of this event, I'm uncertain as they can't do it through the usual bonus route

10) Also, same event card: replace 2 tribe units... do forts have any effect?

11) Victory: Deciding factor on a tie is the faction with the fewest units is the winner but am I right in thinking this is unfair to the Catuvellauni who's win condition is to have a lot of units (has to be 13+)?

I love this game, I love the AI and I appreciate the effort that's gone into the crafting of it too, it's lovely to use. Thank you.

I hope you don't mind my annoying questions, I'm sure they're obvious and I've probably answered some myself... maybe there's only 2 or 3 real questions in that mix but I wanted to ask all of them anyway for peace of mind.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iyidin Kyeimo
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Hi LJP I came to the Games expo on Saturday, my daughter bought a sticker and then I came back at the end of the day and was very glad to buy a copy of the smaller version.
Hi Thomas, thanks for coming by! Appreciate the thorough feedback!

Quote:
I'm so pleased with it, it took me a while to learn it and it's been really worth it. I've enjoyed playing the bots, the AI is straight forward and effective. I've had issues elaborating on the bot moves which have cost me the game a few times as I like to take the opportunity to pass on a bot's go if the upcoming event card will be super useful for them... Maybe there's a straightforward addition to the AI that can be applied in the event decision though it does make it very hard to beat them.
Thanks a lot! My attempt with the bots was to have simple, clear evaluations so that the player doesn't have to make decisions on behalf of the bot. However, this does result in losing some of the nuances of the game. For example, bots won't deliberately restrict themselves to deny other factions an event, and rarely pass unless there are absolutely no actions that are "effective" in any way.

Most events depend on the current circumstances so there is probably no way around this, other than to do as you say and help the bot out when you see that there is a great event coming up for them..

Quote:
1) Forts: Does entering a fort gain that faction an extra 2 units to be used when attacking or is it simply just 2 extra influence for the region?
The latter; a fort adds two influence for determining control (and the defense bonus during battles), not units.

Quote:
2) Initiative Ties: What about a tie for a faction who is re-rolling as part of an event card clean up instruction, how do these rolls compare to the passed dice and the already rolled inactive dice? (my suggestion is that they have least priority, though I'm interested in how you would resolve this)
You are correct, the re-roll initiative events specify "lose all ties" so they would go behind any faction (passed or inactive) if they tied. This would happen automatically, without the need for a tie-break roll.

Quote:
3) March: (just a note really) it would help if it says "move up to 2 units..." in the first sentence rather than just "move units" - I know it does get to that eventually but you have to read about all the mechanics before you get to the constraints on how many to move and I think it would help those reading the rules for the first time.
Noted, thanks!

Quote:
4) March: (another note) it says If performing an "Action in two regions", two different Regions must be chosen as the source - I read that as you must take both actions and it wasn't until I read 3.3 that I realised you can take a partial action and what was really meant here is - When taking Actions in two Regions and performing both actions then each move action must be performed from different source regions. (I hope I'm right)
You are correct, I'll have another look at the wording, thanks.

Quote:
5) Suppress: in the example the Romans move on of the Trinovantes to an adjacent region but they also get put into a fort - I can't see why that would be the case.
Oops, this is just an error on my part, the sneaky Trinovantes have picked up a fort when they shouldn't have! In general though, a faction in a region are always represented by a single die, so any troops pushed into a region where that faction already has presence would simply join the existing block, even if those existing units occupied a fort. However, if there were no Trinovantes in the region already, or they had no fort, they shouldn't gain one!

Quote:
6) Inspire: I think I've worked this out now but I'll ask anyway. Is the bonus restricted to the region where there is an Iceni unit or can an Iceni unit inspire a tribe unit from another/adjacent region? I think now that it's got to be the same region, what threw me was the Iceni BOT says that the bonus shouldn't loose rebel control and I couldn't see how that could happen in the same region so started to wonder if the action could take place across regions. (I see I'm wrong though because a Trinovante could just have 1 unit in a fort in the same region and if they were inspired then the increased influence from the fort would be lost) - Just a sanity check.
You've got it, this is exactly the circumstance the rule was designed to avoid, the Iceni shooting themselves in the foot by converting Trinovantes, and thereby losing control of the region (and perhaps the opportunity for a future Raze?). It could also happen if the Trinovantes only had control by one influence, and the Iceni didn't gain control by inspiring.

As for requiring Iceni presence in the region: yes. Inspire, like all bonus actions, can only happen where activity has taken place (or will take place) for the regular actions. Therefore, there will always be Iceni presence anyway. Even if two Iceni units march out of a region and then inspire after they have left, that can also be achieved by inspiring first when the Iceni are present and then marching out, so it's simpler to just say presence is required rather than treat that as an exception.

Quote:
7) Raze: can this bonus take place even if rebel control is lost through performing it (I'm assuming yes but thought I'd double check)
Yes, you're correct

Quote:
8) Events: Although you can't retain a second card without discarding the first, is it still ok to play an event immediately whilst retaining a card? (I'm assuming so)
Correct

Quote:
9) Event card "shifting alliances": can an Iceni unit enter a fort as part of this event, I'm uncertain as they can't do it through the usual bonus route
Yes, this is one of the very few ways (only?? Can't remember off the top of my head) that the Iceni can gain a fort.

Quote:
10) Also, same event card: replace 2 tribe units... do forts have any effect?
No, the fort defense bonus only applies in battle, here the units are switching sides from within. Note, the faction would not gain a fort if you are converting fortified units. In practice, you simply reduce one faction by two and increase your own by two, maintaining their initial positions.

Quote:
11) Victory: Deciding factor on a tie is the faction with the fewest units is the winner but am I right in thinking this is unfair to the Catuvellauni who's win condition is to have a lot of units (has to be 13+)?
Totally, but in testing I have found that they are generally an easier faction to win with, so this was a deliberate attempt to balance things out. Plus, it is several layers of tie-break down so hopefully won't be an issue often. You could also argue that the Trinovantes absolute maximum score is 6, so they can only ever exceed their win condition by one (also not fair?) but on the other hand, they are never more than 5 points away from their win condition either, so have the advantage in a tight game.. (they could technically win with zero presence on the board I think.... Although hopefully that is an edge case that never happens!!)

Quote:
I love this game, I love the AI and I appreciate the effort that's gone into the crafting of it too, it's lovely to use. Thank you.

I hope you don't mind my annoying questions, I'm sure they're obvious and I've probably answered some myself... maybe there's only 2 or 3 real questions in that mix but I wanted to ask all of them anyway for peace of mind.
No problem at all, feedback is always gratefully received, thanks for taking the time, and I hope I've helped. If not, by all means ask for further clarifications. I'm particularly interested in how you are finding the bots, which are still fairly early in development. I'm sure there are plenty of edge cases out there I will need to address..

Thanks again! Laurie
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
konstantinos hasopouolos
Greece
flag msg tools
So, i'm giving bots a try.

First of, the new board and new/revamped events are great. Loving them. Winning conditions also seem more fit and balanced than before.

My only concern is with catuvellauni. I love how they can rally 2 units in Roman control Extremely thematic. But 16 seems a bit too much. Will have to play-test some more on this.

Now to the Bots AI with an example.
It's reckoning time and it's the Catuvellauni's turn then Romans. The AI as is, will take the Event as it allows it to move from Verulamium to Camulodunum and battle Trinovantes, making 3=1 hit to them thus giving control to Romans (reducing rebel control).
But that would give the victory to the Romans. There is currently no AI for ruining winning conditions for another faction.
Maybe you can work something out, or as a sub-rule, if reckoning is happening and another faction is to win, Bot does whatever it can to alter the set, following a priority list, say, Weaken the position of opposition faction first, then ally, .

In this example Catuvellauni will have to reduce sympathy in Camulodunum. It can either:
rally and fortify in Camulodunum, or march in, or just battle. (here is the priority i mentioned, maybe the bot AI can be used for this also randomly using the Bot die, but the premium region in this case stays Camulodunm).

So rule must apply: IF there is a reckining happening and winning conditions are met by another faction by the end of the round, Bot does whatever to prevent that win.

In this case Catuvellauni cannot stop the Romans, haha, just saying though.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
konstantinos hasopouolos
Greece
flag msg tools
So, been testing the bots a lot.
I have mo conlcusions yet as to the AI yet but ome things are clear everytime.
During a reckoning, the AI must alter it's behaviour towards achieving victonditions.

In the example photo it happned that Iceni play first, having rolled a 4 they will not rally. They could march to Londinium moving 3+ units and could inspire as a bonus action having defiance 1. That would mot leave them with victory conditions aquired.

If they rolled a 3 then they would march to Camulodunum(only intact city). They would raze the city but still no victory conditions are met.

The only way is for them to do so is to inspire at Verulamium increasing defiance to 2 thus having 11 overall. And Trinovantes could do nothing to stop it.

Thus the AI should say, whenever in reckomg phase a bot does whatever is best to ensure victory. (unless the next bot in turn can undo
and SHOULD if possible).

Thats all for now. I will continue testing and will tell you my sum.For the moment it seems ok.

I am atill of the opinion that Catuvellauni's 16 is a bit too much. Maybe to have more thematic it could be less + controll of one region, or just less. Or maybe 15 would do it. 1 city remainig, plus 14 sounds enough and difficult to achieve. Also this makes the other factions more involved.Have to check it but as it seems i can never make them win.

2 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Massimiliano della Rovere
Italy
Pisa
Tuscany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
is it possible to buy a copy?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
matteo n
msg tools
masdero wrote:
is it possible to buy a copy?

+1
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Robinson
United Kingdom
Neston
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Just got my copy from the designer.

Wonderful effort on the production
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J de K
Netherlands
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Today, I gave this one a try. I printed the big board, the event cards and the last page with player aids and created some handwritten tokens. I really like the look of the game and the rule book is also strong in my opinion. I played all four sides by myself. It took me quite a while and near the end I was a bit brain burned, but I enjoyed it ver much. I think it is a very clever design. The action selection and available actions create a lot of interesting decisions with only a few components.

In my game the timing of the reckonings and the scores where as follows:
Reckoning 1 at turn 5: 10, 1, 3, 4 (scores of Cat, Rom, Tri, Ice)
Reckoning 2 at turn 11: 12, 7, 2, 4
Reckoning 3 at turn 16: 13, 6, 2, 6
Reckoning 4 at turn 23: 13, 8, 5, 8
I think the rebels had a pretty good start, but after that Cat and Rom, became stronger. Ice had a hard time because it had quite poor dice rolls and you need some good dice rolls to destroy a city and/or increase defiance. The rebels were quite loyal to each other, while Rome and Cat attacked each other a few times to prevent the other of winning. In the end Tri won, but Rome and Cat also could have won this game in the 3rd or 4th reckoning.

I think Tri and Cat had the most armies on the map, while I would have expected Rome and Ice to have more armies. The rally action was very popular, while march and battle weren't used that much. The events were also popular. Tri used fortify quite often and Rome liked suppress.

Some random remarks:
I think it would be nice to add control in the glossary.
In section 3.0 in the second point of the +bonus explanation I am a bit unsure about the use of the word "either". I think I understand what the sentence means, but I am not sure why "either" is there.
In section 4.2 there is an example for the scoring of Tri; I think the rebels need to control 4 regions instead of three for them to win in that scenario.
If an event affects 2 regions and changes the will, one can choose the region, right? Suppose, the event increases sympathy, is it then allowed to choice a region that already has two sympathy?
I felt like (some of) the events are quite strong. I remember reading somewhere (but not where :S ) that in COIN games the events are somewhere between a normal action and a normal action + special ability.


Anyway, very nice game! I hope to try it again some other time. And maybe maybe I will also have a look at the bots.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iyidin Kyeimo
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Merseyside
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for your detailed feedback, camelspotter!

camelspotter wrote:
My only concern is with catuvellauni.
is waaay too generous...

First, to address the issue of 16 being too high for the Catuvellauni.. If this is the case (and I'm not arguing that it isn't, more testing required..), I think the problem would not be that 16 is too high, but that the Catuvellauni bot doesn't prioritise Rally enough (or doesn't do so intelligently to maximise Rally actions using regions in Roman control). Human players have generally found the Catuvellauni victory conditions ok in my experience.

I'm going to try adjusting the bot Rally condition by increasing the test i.e. Rally if units < (Round number/2) + d6 + 2 (although this loses some elegance..) Another potential option would be to change the Catuvellauni victory condition from Total units + number of intact cities to Total influence + number of intact cities. This might be interesting as it incentives the Catuvellauni to Fortify more, which is quite punishing for them at the moment..

Second, with regards to modifying rules during the rounds when a reckoning can happen.. I think this would add a layer of complexity too far. What you are basically saying is that the bot should "play the best move for the faction". While this is obviously the ideal situation, the bots just don't have enough information about the current board state to be able to do that easily. Alternatively, if you have to do a load of reasoning on behalf of the faction, you may as well just ignore the bots and play all sides yourself. I am trying to have bots that require absolutely minimal input from Humans while still being effective players. I was surprised just how complex the board state could be given the low number of variables with such a small board..

BlueChicken wrote:
I think Tri and Cat had the most armies on the map, while I would have expected Rome and Ice to have more armies. The rally action was very popular, while march and battle weren't used that much. The events were also popular. Tri used fortify quite often and Rome liked suppress.

Thanks BlueChicken, I remember your username from the very early days of the [WIP] thread.. thanks for the feedback!

The unit numbers imbalance is something that has concerned me too, especially with the Iceni. Thematically they should be a vast horde sweeping the map, instead they work much more like guerrilla forces popping up and destroying a city before melting away. Part of the problem with using a COIN system I suppose, but something I have noted and will keep in mind going forward..

BlueChicken wrote:

Some random remarks:
I think it would be nice to add control in the glossary.
In section 3.0 in the second point of the +bonus explanation I am a bit unsure about the use of the word "either". I think I understand what the sentence means, but I am not sure why "either" is there.
In section 4.2 there is an example for the scoring of Tri; I think the rebels need to control 4 regions instead of three for them to win in that scenario.
If an event affects 2 regions and changes the will, one can choose the region, right? Suppose, the event increases sympathy, is it then allowed to choice a region that already has two sympathy?
I felt like (some of) the events are quite strong. I remember reading somewhere (but not where :S ) that in COIN games the events are somewhere between a normal action and a normal action + special ability.
1) Noted, will see about adding Control on the next revision
2) Thanks, "either" is a typo (should read "perform either before or after" or "perform before (or after)", but I've included elements from both ways of saying it.. The rule was just meant to emphasise that you can perform a bonus action before your main action or after your main action.
3) Typo.. yes, rebels need to control all 4 regions, or Trinovantes need 3 forts. (Their victory target changed between 4 and 5 several times and I've just missed this..)
4) Yes, it's a free choice where to apply the will adjustment, even if that means no change.
5) I've deliberated strengthened the events as I felt the v1.0 events were quite weak and a lot of the tension in the game requires strong events. Without that, highest initiative chooses "Action in two regions + bonus" far too often, which is much less interesting.

I'd be interested in reading the article regarding events, if you ever find it again. My feeling was that they should be a little bit stronger than normal action + special or else the second eligible would have the advantage. I guess the difference is that with Coin Tribes, there are no resources to spend. I can understand events being more desirable, even if less powerful, if it doesn't cost you anything. What I've tried to do instead is make them more dependant on circumstances as well, so their strength should change depending on the board state (although that's more successful with some than others).


BlueChicken wrote:

Anyway, very nice game! I hope to try it again some other time. And maybe maybe I will also have a look at the bots.
Cheers!

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J de K
Netherlands
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Thanks for your response!

Iyidin_Kyeimo wrote:

I'd be interested in reading the article regarding events, if you ever find it again. My feeling was that they should be a little bit stronger than normal action + special or else the second eligible would have the advantage. I guess the difference is that with Coin Tribes, there are no resources to spend. I can understand events being more desirable, even if less powerful, if it doesn't cost you anything. What I've tried to do instead is make them more dependant on circumstances as well, so their strength should change depending on the board state (although that's more successful with some than others).
I enjoy reading about the design of COIN games on BGG, InsideGMT and other sources with designer interviews. I don't think the comment on the strength of the events was a full article, more of a remark somewhere. I tried to find it again, but I couldn't. So maybe I misremembered. Some things I did find:
In colonial twilight, the two player COIN, the initiative on the next card is decided by the action of the first player on this card. And you keep the initiative if you play the event, do a command only or pass. This could hint on event being weaker than command + special.
Several players stated on the BGG forum that events often seem better than they are, i.e. you shouldn't play too many events. In one case, a play report on Falling Sky, Volko responded on such a claim without disagreeing.
Below an InsideGMT article about events in Falling Sky, someone notes that the events seem powerful. Volko replies: you should try the game to find out, and about a particular event he notes that it sometimes has a high impact and sometimes no impact.
Not sure what to conclude from this. In the end "The Coin Tribes' Revolt" should be fun to play; if powerful events help with this, there should be powerful events. Note that it was just a feeling of mine based on one play.

Iyidin_Kyeimo wrote:

The unit numbers imbalance is something that has concerned me too, especially with the Iceni. Thematically they should be a vast horde sweeping the map, instead they work much more like guerrilla forces popping up and destroying a city before melting away. Part of the problem with using a COIN system I suppose, but something I have noted and will keep in mind going forward..
About the thematical inconsistency of the Iceni, it is a though call. A GMT developer will probably urge you to redesign this aspect, because they value both realism and fun to play. But as long as you are not working with GMT, you can do whatever you want. Creating a fun and interesting game is already quite challenging and an honorable goal. Based on how it looks and my one play, I think you should already be proud on your creation. In case you do want to make a change, hereby my random thoughts:
The victory conditions gives the incentive to play this way for the Iceni. However, destroying cities and creating defiance seem to be logical objectives. Adding a third objective won't be very elegant.
The alternative seems to be to change the actions. In that regard it seems to be logical to strengthen the rally action. Some options:
Rally gives 2 units
Rally gives a second unit if the area is Defiance
Rally increases Defiance
Rally increases Defiance if the rally causes the area to become in rebel/inceni control.
Not sure how you feel about changing Will with standard actions, but I do have to note that Iceni need quit a lot of special actions to win (If you ignore events, I think 4 is a strict minimum, but 8 is more realistic considering the romans).
If this makes the Iceni too strong, a possible nerf could be to allow inspire only if rebel/inceni control.


I, btw, like the idea to change the Catuvellauni victory condition from Total units + number of intact cities to Total influence + number of intact cities. Because in my game CAT only fortified to prevent Rome from winning.


Anyway, hopefully this post contains some food for thought. Good luck with the design!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
alessio d'achille
Italy
Roma
Roma
flag msg tools
thegoodson wrote:
masdero wrote:
is it possible to buy a copy?

+1

I would like to know if it is possible to buy some copies (about 4-5) from Italy

Thank you in advance
Best Regards
Alessio
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John C
United States
Colorado SPrings
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
When you finish the rules it would be nice to toss the game on game crafters, so some of us can buy the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriel Wolthuis
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This version has been preferable so far in all respects for my game group except for one. The Catuvellani are too difficult to win with, and no one has ever won a game with them. The main reason is that the game encourages the Catuvellani to be in Roman-controlled areas, and while there are great advantages to staying close to the Romans, the Romans can easily reduce your armies due to their combat power and the fact that you are almost certainly in their territories. In this respect, I prefer the old version.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls