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Subject: VGG QOTD 2019 May 18 - What games did you unexpectedly enjoy? rss

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Gabe Hawkins
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What games did you unexpectedly enjoy? How about the opposite -- are there any games you assumed you would enjoy but wound up really disliking?
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ghostpants wrote:
What games did you unexpectedly enjoy? How about the opposite -- are there any games you assumed you would enjoy but wound up really disliking?


Kingdom Come: Deliverance - I didn't think I would like this game much, but I decided to rent it when it first released. It was really glitchy and buggy, but I somehow still really enjoyed it. I'm planning on buying it when it gets cheap enough at some point.

Stardew Valley - I really wanted to like this game, but I just get too frustrated playing it. I dislike the feeling some games have where it forces you into doing only a limited number of things in a day, and you never feel like you were able to accomplish what you wanted to do.

The Atelier games have this concept as well, and I don't particularly care for it in those games either, but I feel like I have more control over how the day plays out in those games.
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Unexpected enjoyment: Warframe! I originally tried it just because it was free, but I tend not to like FPS games especially multiplayer, so figured I'd bounce right off it. Ended up my most-played game of all time.

Unexpected Unenjoyment: Darksiders 1. All the ingredients of games I love, and yet somehow playing just felt like a slog.
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GibbRS wrote:

Stardew Valley - I really wanted to like this game, but I just get too frustrated playing it. I dislike the feeling some games have where it forces you into doing only a limited number of things in a day, and you never feel like you were able to accomplish what you wanted to do.

The Atelier games have this concept as well, and I don't particularly care for it in those games either, but I feel like I have more control over how the day plays out in those games.

Definitely empathize. I'm more okay with games where it's clear you can do X things per day (like Persona), but completely incapable of enjoying games where a timer is running all the time. I'm fine with timed sections where you have to escape a burning building or whatever, but I like taking my time in a game and faffing about, so really can't deal with games like Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter or (from what I've heard) Majora's Mask, where the clock is always running and a relaxed pace exploring will kill you.
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Unexpectedly liked: Hotline Miami seemed like it wouldn't be my jam at all, but I ended up liking it a lot.

Unexpectedly disliked: I really wanted to love Satellite Reign, but several design decisions made me abandon it. More recently, Ori and The Blind Forest: Definitive Edition proved to be way too difficult for me, even though I loved the soundtrack before playing it, and really liked the visuals.

And BATTLETECH broke my heart with its unbalanced campaign which had me stuck just a few story missions in. I'm still not ready to give it another go.
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Unexpected enjoyment:

Goleneye 007 FPS games aren't my bag, but this one manages to transcend the genre.

Unexpected dislike:

Undertale The whole internet thronging over this retro JRPG. I like retro and JRPG. But no one mentioned this isn't actually a JRPG at all. It's a bullet hell shootdodge em up. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

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Osirus wrote:
Majora's Mask, where the clock is always running and a relaxed pace exploring will kill you.


I'm not a video game speedster by any stretch and didn't once die to the moon.
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GibbRS wrote:
Stardew Valley - I really wanted to like this game, but I just get too frustrated playing it. I dislike the feeling some games have where it forces you into doing only a limited number of things in a day, and you never feel like you were able to accomplish what you wanted to do.


This was me in Harvest Moon: Save The Homeland. I'd attend to the farm in the morning and then would head to town to interact with townsfolk. But by the time I got there the townsfolk windows would have passed.

And if I did the townsfolk first I wouldn't have time to tend my farm.

I think I eventually got a horse or something that allowed me to travel more quickly to get more objectives completed in the day, but there are things you have to accomplish in the spring or summer.
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Darkest Dungeon jumps to mind. I've abandoned Roguelike games in the past out of frustration and discouragement. DD sounded like it might be even worse, with its psychological dimension and dark theme. But it turned out to the the first Roguelite I'd ever played (hadn't even heard the word before), and I couldn't get enough of it. In DD, I feel I'm always making progress, no matter what happens. Disaster still feels like disaster, and permadeath is a reality, but the quest goes on.

Mario Kart DS might be an older example. When I got a Nintendo DS Lite to play TBS games like Advance Wars on, I got excited about the new toy and bought a few top-rated games for it. I couldn't imagine MK being anything but a passing whim, but I wanted to see what "kids these days" were into. Instead, I got hooked. Played the heck out of it for a long time. I might still get back into it for another MK binge one of these days.

As to unexpected dislike, let's see ...

M.U.L.E.. A very old game that fans have never stopped raving about. I was sure it'd have to be good to continue impressing gamers for so long. But I could barely catch on, and when I started to, I didn't want to play anymore.

Sword of the Stars. I tried three or four times to learn to love this game, as it's so promising and seems right up my alley. But the 3D map kills it for me; just too hard to navigate. And a 3D tech tree? Who thought of that?

Maybe Quest for Glory. But my disappointment here was mainly just a mechanical one: I couldn't get the combat pad to work (or if it was working, I couldn't get the hang of it), either with a mouse or keyboard. I could've enjoyed running through the game (maybe with a walkthrough), but the real-time combat spoiled it for me.

SimCity 2000 and Railroad Tycoon II and just about all "builder" games--including, sadly, my latest acquisition, Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom. I get so frustrated with belligerent AI opponents in Civ-type games that I thought a peaceful city-builder would be just the thing for me. Not so. Again, I've experimented quite a bit, but it just doesn't work for me. I'm not much of a planner, and I have no head for economics; and if I build something I later regret--well, I really regret it. And it's usually not easy to undo and redo.

Imperialism. This one really galls me. I avoided it when it was new because I figured I wouldn't like an economics-heavy game. Years later, I bought it (both games) because I heard it was absolutely one of the best strategy games ever made. That appears to be true. I was highly impressed and thoroughly convinced that I'd found the cream of the crop. And maybe I had. But unfortunately, it turned out my original intuition from years before was also true: I can't wrap my head around economic games well enough to even begin to enjoy them.
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Osirus wrote:

Definitely empathize. I'm more okay with games where it's clear you can do X things per day (like Persona), but completely incapable of enjoying games where a timer is running all the time.


Indeed. It took me 270 hours or so to finish my first playthrough of Persona 5. I took my sweet time doing as much as I could on each day. I about lost my cool with Morgana constantly telling me I was too tired to do anything else, but other than that the game didn't feel nearly as restrictive as Stardew Valley or Nelke & The Legendary Alchemists: Ateliers Of The New World.

Nelke isn't a bad game, but its time management is quite bizarre. It gives you a clock each day, and talking to a person takes up 1/8th of the day. If you talk to 3 or so people, it makes it so you don't really have the time to explore an area to the fullest. If you do try to go exploring, you'll run out of time before you can get to the end, which has a mini boss or treasure chest.
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Hotline Miami - it's not that I expected to dislike it, but rather, it's a pretty weird game and I had no reason to think I would be a fan.

Vanquish - nothing about the elevator pitch for this game would interest me. Only played it because of PS+. Turned out to be among the very best shooters / action games I've ever played.

Wind-Up Knight - it's an Endless Runner with more complex controls than most. I couldn't believe how well made it was. One of those rare games from the early days of mobile that demonstrated, almost by accident, that the platform was going to be ruined solely by business practices.

Games I expected to like but didn't? Harder to name.

The Conduit - probably the best technical use of the Wii-mote on the entire platform, and tragically attached to an absolutely awful shooter. Don't see that too often - technical excellence rotting away in a landfill.

BioShock: Burial at Sea – Episode 1 - this was such an embarassing and disgraceful end for the franchise. After the disappointment of Infinite, the DLC goes back to Rapture. Everything about it sucks.

Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent - I expected to like this only because it's the immediate sequel to Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which is the best game ever released under the "Tom Clancy" brand, the best game in the Splinter Cell series, an influential stealth classic, and among the 10 or so best games of its generation. Double Agent is trash.
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frumpish wrote:


Undertale The whole internet thronging over this retro JRPG. I like retro and JRPG. But no one mentioned this isn't actually a JRPG at all. It's a bullet hell shootdodge em up. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


It's actually a game about the triumph of love and communication over hate and violence, where the bullet-hell mechanics are one of many factors drawing the player away from combat entirely.

Nobody loves it because it's a "retro jRPG." laugh

And definitely nobody loves it for being bullet-hell (which in any meaningful sense, it isn't).
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JohnRayJr wrote:
frumpish wrote:


Undertale The whole internet thronging over this retro JRPG. I like retro and JRPG. But no one mentioned this isn't actually a JRPG at all. It's a bullet hell shootdodge em up. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


It's actually a game about the triumph of love and communication over hate and violence, where the bullet-hell mechanics are one of many factors drawing the player away from combat entirely.

Nobody loves it because it's a "retro jRPG." laugh

And definitely nobody loves it for being bullet-hell (which in any meaningful sense, it isn't).

Well, meaningful or not, like Frumpish I was very excited to play Undertale based on the hype for what looked like a quirky jRPG in the vague Earthbound realm, and I bounced off of Undertale pretty hard due to the bullet-heck dodging combat system.
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Osirus wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
frumpish wrote:


Undertale The whole internet thronging over this retro JRPG. I like retro and JRPG. But no one mentioned this isn't actually a JRPG at all. It's a bullet hell shootdodge em up. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


It's actually a game about the triumph of love and communication over hate and violence, where the bullet-hell mechanics are one of many factors drawing the player away from combat entirely.

Nobody loves it because it's a "retro jRPG." laugh

And definitely nobody loves it for being bullet-hell (which in any meaningful sense, it isn't).

Well, meaningful or not, like Frumpish I was very excited to play Undertale based on the hype for what looked like a quirky jRPG in the vague Earthbound realm, and I bounced off of Undertale pretty hard due to the bullet-heck dodging combat system.


Which is fine, but there's a difference between mis-matched expectations and continuing to misunderstand what a game even is.

Undertale's entire cultural impact within videogaming circles comes down to its rebuke of toxic gamer culture. I get being surprised by that / being unaware of it.

But nobody ever said, "if you liked Chrono Trigger as a kid, you'll like this," or "if you liked Galaga as a kid, you'll like this." I think about the only statement like this that people do say is, "if you like Earthbound, you'll like this," which should immediately tell people that this is a very unusual and unconventional game.

I was a late-comer to Undertale and it's not important to me that other gamers feel charmed by it. But, when someone says, "man, I really don't like bullet-hell combat and that put me off the game," it seems appropriate to point out that, not only is the game completable without ever having to slug it out with an enemy, but that's the point.

Not looking for that in a game is of course individual preference.
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JohnRayJr wrote:
Not looking for that in a game is of course individual preference.

It's an individual preference, but even without knowing the game--just reading comments about it here--it seems very weird to me that anyone would design a game to say, "There's something some of us think there's too much of in video games. We're including it here so you'll have something to avoid."

Reminds me of the movie Pulp Fiction, which I guess was supposed to be a humorous statement about all the violence in movies, where the humor consisted of going over the top with scenes of graphic violence. Maybe I missed the point, maybe the humor or cultural statement was lost on me, but I just wanted to walk out. I sat through it because my wife found it amusing and wanted to stay.
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
Not looking for that in a game is of course individual preference.

It's an individual preference, but even without knowing the game--just reading comments about it here--it seems very weird to me that anyone would design a game to say, "There's something some of us think there's too much of in video games. We're including it here so you'll have something to avoid."


Well, Undertale is nothing if not weird.

But more seriously, compare the game to something like Dishonored. Dishonored is designed around the idea of stealth, evasion, surprise, etc. All of the abilities, level design, and contextual cues conspire to say: slip through unseen, be a ghost.

But you can rampage your way through the game.

So consider this hypothetical: if someone played Dishonored, and then went into a videogame forum and said "this is not a very good shooter," or even, "I was told this would be a shooter," the fanbase would say "it's not a shooter in the first place."

It's not a perfect analogy. Some people will enjoy Undertale's combat. Some people will not particularly enjoy it but still want to see how the game unfolds with it (which goes back to players who like to experiment with multiple playstyles and endings).

My only point is, if you play a game, and your first reaction is "oh man, this combat is going to be a big turn-off," maybe it's reasonable to also see the numerous other cues in the game that pose the question, "is combat even the best, most expedient, most interesting, and most narratively appropriate path?" Maybe the idea of de-escalating confrontations, and at times even befriending presumptive 'villains,' seems cheesy, or maybe you really like leveling up, and don't want to play a game where the most important thing at the end is that you haven't. Maybe the idea of a game that, more than anything, is about design conventions and audience culture, and much less about its own internal plot, seems kind of lame to you. At that point I'd just say, "fair enough, we're talking about Undertale."
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JohnRayJr wrote:
Osirus wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
frumpish wrote:


Undertale The whole internet thronging over this retro JRPG. I like retro and JRPG. But no one mentioned this isn't actually a JRPG at all. It's a bullet hell shootdodge em up. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


It's actually a game about the triumph of love and communication over hate and violence, where the bullet-hell mechanics are one of many factors drawing the player away from combat entirely.

Nobody loves it because it's a "retro jRPG." laugh

And definitely nobody loves it for being bullet-hell (which in any meaningful sense, it isn't).

Well, meaningful or not, like Frumpish I was very excited to play Undertale based on the hype for what looked like a quirky jRPG in the vague Earthbound realm, and I bounced off of Undertale pretty hard due to the bullet-heck dodging combat system.


Which is fine, but there's a difference between mis-matched expectations and continuing to misunderstand what a game even is.

Undertale's entire cultural impact within videogaming circles comes down to its rebuke of toxic gamer culture. I get being surprised by that / being unaware of it.

But nobody ever said, "if you liked Chrono Trigger as a kid, you'll like this," or "if you liked Galaga as a kid, you'll like this." I think about the only statement like this that people do say is, "if you like Earthbound, you'll like this," which should immediately tell people that this is a very unusual and unconventional game.

I was a late-comer to Undertale and it's not important to me that other gamers feel charmed by it. But, when someone says, "man, I really don't like bullet-hell combat and that put me off the game," it seems appropriate to point out that, not only is the game completable without ever having to slug it out with an enemy, but that's the point.

Not looking for that in a game is of course individual preference.

Maybe I just wasn't good enough to find the no-fighting path. But whenever I encountered an enemy I specifically attempted to choose the non-violent options because I appreciated the idea of "maybe killing everything isn't always the best way to deal with obstacles". And I still kept dying to bullet hell.

If it's easy enough to play an actual no-combat playthrough, maybe at some future point I'll go back and give it another try. I was eager to try it because of all the comparisons to Earthbound (which I loved), but appreciating the underlying metacommentary did nothing to alleviate my dislike of the gameplay. (I also hated Papers Please, for the same reason.)
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JohnRayJr wrote:
it seems appropriate to point out that, not only is the game completable without ever having to slug it out with an enemy, but that's the point.


I tried using the discussion system in battle. And when I chose the wrong discussion item it went into the bullet hell system. Maybe there is something I didn't realize that could allow a player to avoid the bullet hell component, but it eluded me.
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Undertale, the game that people will keep insisting you should like because of how good it is, even if you make it quite clear it wasn't your cup of tea
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Lord_Kristof wrote:
Undertale, the game that people will keep insisting you should like because of how good it is, even if you make it quite clear it wasn't your cup of tea


This sort of passive aggressive bullshit is far beneath you.

There is nothing in this discussion where I'm trying to convince Frumpish, or you, to like Undertale. You know it, you know I know it, and yet you wrote it anyway.

/softclap.
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JohnRayJr wrote:

This sort of passive aggressive bullshit is far beneath you.


Apologies if this struck a nerve, John. I intended this as a joke, nothing passive agressive about it. Undertale has many evangelists, and I also felt - similar to what Frumpish wrote in his original post - that a lot of people were taken by it, whereas (as you know from one of the geeklists) I was very nonplussed about it.

So sorry again, I was hoping you'd laugh this off instead of being angry. Didn't mean to provoke this kind of reaction.
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Unexpectedly enjoyed:

Portal (2007) - all the info and reviews about this game made it look like something grittier and tougher than I'd enjoy. What they couldn't convey is how funny it is.

Metroid Prime - the reviews all said it was pretty tough, and the Gamecube version was tougher probably, but I enjoyed the structure of this game quite a bit, and many of the environments and puzzles were excellent.

Tomb Raider (2013) - this got a lot of bad press for the violence and "death porn", but it turns out it's an excellent Uncharted clone, with better platforming, combat and exploration. Enjoyed it quite a bit, except for the occasional gore.

Unexpectedly disliked:

The Last Guardian - after enjoying Ico and Shadow of the Colossus I expected this to be more of the same. But I couldn't get past its extreme clunkiness. Abandoned.

Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure - this puzzle game got a lot of love. But I found it absolutely not my cup of tea. The style of puzzles is guess what to do, and if you get it wrong, start again. Disliked.
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frumpish wrote:
Osirus wrote:
Majora's Mask, where the clock is always running and a relaxed pace exploring will kill you.


I'm not a video game speedster by any stretch and didn't once die to the moon.
I agree though that in Majora's Mask, time is something you've got to make peace with. You can't dally too much. But you get the ability to slow down time pretty early on. It's not too onerous, once you accept you'll have to do each dungeon twice.
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Osirus wrote:
Unexpected enjoyment: Warframe! I originally tried it just because it was free, but I tend not to like FPS games especially multiplayer, so figured I'd bounce right off it. Ended up my most-played game of all time.

Unexpected Unenjoyment: Darksiders 1. All the ingredients of games I love, and yet somehow playing just felt like a slog.
Darksiders II is a lot better, IMO, and one I intend to replay any day soon. It has a lot lighter feel and a more nimble protagonist. I recommend it. Not perfect, but fun.
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