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Subject: What an Awful Ad rss

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Rich Keiser
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Shader10 wrote:
russ wrote:
FWIW the product seems to be simply miniatures, not a game.


That makes a lot of very sad sense.


How so? Many a company, pre-KS days were built on just minis... all scale of soldiers, ships, armor, artillery, druids, wizards, blobs, globs, slobs....

 
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Bryan Thunkd
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russ wrote:
FWIW the product seems to be simply miniatures, not a game.
LMAO. So this is pretty much the natural conclusion of my hypothesis about this sort of thing... normally I see this type of stuff and think that there's no way it's going to be any good as a game and that they're just trying to grab sales by appealing to the crowd that's titillated by half-naked minis. So they've given up pretending and are admitting they have no idea how to make a game and they're just doing the half-naked minis. lol
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Rich Keiser
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Thunkd wrote:
russ wrote:
FWIW the product seems to be simply miniatures, not a game.
LMAO. So this is pretty much the natural conclusion of my hypothesis about this sort of thing... normally I see this type of stuff and think that there's no way it's going to be any good as a game and that they're just trying to grab sales by appealing to the crowd that's titillated by half-naked minis. So they've given up pretending and are admitting they have no idea how to make a game and they're just doing the half-naked minis. lol


In their defense, this proves three things:

1. Know thyself (know thybusiness) - Not everyone can be a great designer, as evidenced by the historical level of dreck games. To assume that every game that rolls off a press is good is optimistic. I know absolutely nothing about the producer of these minis, but if they were once designers, they obviously learned that they are not very good at it, so good for them. Lots of shitty designers just keep squeezing out the waste.

2. Know the market - Minis are a big thing. Specialized minis are a big thing. I wouldn't buy the minis, but there are plenty that will. As a business activity, this is just smart. You don't get a ribbon and bonus for best intentions or idealism in business, as much as outsiders think one should. The idealists are typically working for someone else.

3. Offensive and titillating always works. There is this thread populated by those that would never buy the item, discussing the item. That is a win in marketing parameters. I don't endorse this, but to clench the pearls over the lizard and monkey brain centers firing is akin to someone wanting world peace - quite amusing.



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darthhugo wrote:
In their defense, this proves three things:

1. Know thyself (know thybusiness) - Not everyone can be a great designer, as evidenced by the historical level of dreck games. To assume that every game that rolls off a press is good is optimistic. I know absolutely nothing about the producer of these minis, but if they were once designers, they obviously learned that they are not very good at it, so good for them. Lots of shitty designers just keep squeezing out the waste.
Oh, I agree. This makes a lot more sense than the people who'd try to shoehorn these minis into a bad game.

darthhugo wrote:
2. Know the market - Minis are a big thing. Specialized minis are a big thing. I wouldn't buy the minis, but there are plenty that will. As a business activity, this is just smart. You don't get a ribbon and bonus for best intentions or idealism in business, as much as outsiders think one should. The idealists are typically working for someone else.

3. Offensive and titillating always works. There is this thread populated by those that would never buy the item, discussing the item. That is a win in marketing parameters. I don't endorse this, but to clench the pearls over the lizard and monkey brain centers firing is akin to someone wanting world peace - quite amusing.
These last two points are pretty much the same thing. And I agree, there's a huge market for minis of half-naked women and pandering to the guys who are going to sit in the dark fondling a naked mini makes a lot of financial sense. I'm not sure the money would be enough to offset my discomfort at peddling porn to people I'd rather not deal with in the first place, but I'm sure there's lots of people who'd be cool with it.
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Rich Keiser
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Thunkd wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
In their defense, this proves three things:

1. Know thyself (know thybusiness) - Not everyone can be a great designer, as evidenced by the historical level of dreck games. To assume that every game that rolls off a press is good is optimistic. I know absolutely nothing about the producer of these minis, but if they were once designers, they obviously learned that they are not very good at it, so good for them. Lots of shitty designers just keep squeezing out the waste.
Oh, I agree. This makes a lot more sense than the people who'd try to shoehorn these minis into a bad game.

darthhugo wrote:
2. Know the market - Minis are a big thing. Specialized minis are a big thing. I wouldn't buy the minis, but there are plenty that will. As a business activity, this is just smart. You don't get a ribbon and bonus for best intentions or idealism in business, as much as outsiders think one should. The idealists are typically working for someone else.

3. Offensive and titillating always works. There is this thread populated by those that would never buy the item, discussing the item. That is a win in marketing parameters. I don't endorse this, but to clench the pearls over the lizard and monkey brain centers firing is akin to someone wanting world peace - quite amusing.
These last two points are pretty much the same thing. And I agree, there's a huge market for minis of half-naked women and pandering to the guys who are going to sit in the dark fondling a naked mini makes a lot of financial sense. I'm not sure the money would be enough to offset my discomfort at peddling porn to people I'd rather not deal with in the first place, but I'm sure there's lots of people who'd be cool with it.



I had three points when I started, but forgot the third, so I repurposed one of them. I blame aging and not taking notes when the spirit inhabits me.

 
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Thunkd wrote:
]These last two points are pretty much the same thing. And I agree, there's a huge market for minis of half-naked women and pandering to the guys who are going to sit in the dark fondling a naked mini makes a lot of financial sense. I'm not sure the money would be enough to offset my discomfort at peddling porn to people I'd rather not deal with in the first place, but I'm sure there's lots of people who'd be cool with it.


Unless they are obscenely posed, I'm not sure it's porn exactly. Erotic, sure. And even if it was, I'm not sure why selling pornographic minatures to that subset of customers is particularly problematic vs selling traditional porn to the general public. At least with minatures, there's no potential for abuse of the actresses/models. And while some of those basement dwellers have uncomfortable views on women, well-dressed, more socially competent men can be just as misogynistic. They are just better at hiding it at first glance.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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Kaixo wrote:
I'm not sure why selling pornographic minatures to that subset of customers is particularly problematic vs selling traditional porn to the general public.
You seem to be under the illusion that I'd be okay selling traditional porn. That's not something I'd particularly want to do either.
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Rich Keiser
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Thunkd wrote:
Kaixo wrote:
I'm not sure why selling pornographic minatures to that subset of customers is particularly problematic vs selling traditional porn to the general public.
You seem to be under the illusion that I'd be okay selling traditional porn. That's not something I'd particularly want to do either.


Oh, so you aren't the proprietor of Bryan's Barn off 91 near Holyoke?


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Thunkd wrote:


My comfort at peddling porn to people I'd rather not deal with in the first place, but I'm sure there's lots of people who'd be cool with it.


You are the one who made the distinction in porn consumers. Thats a distinction that didn't need to be made, if you are uncomfortable with all porn consumers/peddlers,
 
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Olli Juhala
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I'm more concerned with the fact that hobby get's saddled with consistent reminders it's aimed at men who just can't live without getting their titilliations from the hobby it self. There's literally infinite amount of porn available with just single address typed. I don't see why folk need their toy soldiers to compete with that.
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Shader10 wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that hobby get's saddled with consistent reminders it's aimed at men who just can't live without getting their titilliations from the hobby it self. There's literally infinite amount of porn available with just single address typed. I don't see why folk need their toy soldiers to compete with that.

FWIW that seems a slightly odd argument to me: I don't see anything wrong in principle with combining several hobby interests. It's seems clearly not a matter of "needing" to combine interests, but a matter of enjoying it when one's interests can overlap. Don't we all experience this?

E.g. there are zillions of books and films about military history, but few would similarly criticize wargamers and wargames for unnecessarily combining military history with games and lament why these gamers have to combine those two interests when they can find military history elsewhere outside of games. There are zillions of sudoku/etc logic puzzle books, but few would similary criticize various abstract games which are very logic-puzzle-ish. People who enjoy rock music also enjoy films which have rock music in the soundtrack, even though they can listen to as much rock music as they want outside of films. People who enjoy art and who enjoy travelling and foreign languages can combine their interests when they visit an art museum in a foreign city, even though they can see plenty of art without traveling abroad. Etc.

(Nor does the existence of wargames and puzzle games mean that "the hobby" (as some monolithic whole) is aimed at people into military history, or people into logic puzzles.)


(To be clear, I'm not praising or defending this miniature; I'm just commenting on the "why do they need to mix their other interest with gaming" argument.)
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IMHO the vast majority of game art these days is aimed towards everybody. If you look through the boardgame top 500 on BGG, how many times do you find "titilliations" (I like that word) present in the games?

And if somebody wants to produce a game with lot's of "titilliations" in it then let them make it. Or is there a shortage of games that you are forced to play games with lot's of "titilliations" because that's the only thing available?

I get that folks don't like to see it and showing this ad front and center on BGG is probably not a good idea but I'm against censorship or telling people what they can't and shouldn't like or produce.

(I only play games with "titilliations" if it fits the theme of the game)
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Olli Juhala
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russ wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that hobby get's saddled with consistent reminders it's aimed at men who just can't live without getting their titilliations from the hobby it self. There's literally infinite amount of porn available with just single address typed. I don't see why folk need their toy soldiers to compete with that.

FWIW that seems a slightly odd argument to me: I don't see anything wrong in principle with combining several hobby interests. It's seems clearly not a matter of "needing" to combine interests, but a matter of enjoying it when one's interests can overlap. Don't we all experience this?

E.g. there are zillions of books and films about military history, but few would similarly criticize wargamers and wargames for unnecessarily combining military history with games and lament why these gamers have to combine those two interests when they can find military history elsewhere outside of games. There are zillions of sudoku/etc logic puzzle books, but few would similary criticize various abstract games which are very logic-puzzle-ish. People who enjoy rock music also enjoy films which have rock music in the soundtrack, even though they can listen to as much rock music as they want outside of films. People who enjoy art and who enjoy travelling and foreign languages can combine their interests when they visit an art museum in a foreign city, even though they can see plenty of art without traveling abroad. Etc.

(Nor does the existence of wargames and puzzle games mean that "the hobby" (as some monolithic whole) is aimed at people into military history, or people into logic puzzles.)


(To be clear, I'm not praising or defending this miniature; I'm just commenting on the "why do they need to mix their other interest with gaming" argument.)


It's mostly a hobby image thing, to me - I got to see that ad, because algorithms decided there was an off-chance I might click and buy stuff. I can only assume it is because I'm male, have interest in games and read some fantasy novels in my time.
 
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Shader10 wrote:
I got to see that ad, because algorithms decided there was an off-chance I might click and buy stuff. I can only assume it is because I'm male, have interest in games and read some fantasy novels in my time.

I always thought the obviously game-related gamer-oriented ads which were presumably arranged directly with BGG and displayed by BGG (as opposed to generic google ads for whatever random stuff like shoes or keyrings or whatever) were simply shown to all BGG users (i.e. that BGG doesn't do all that demographic spying and targetting like google does).

But I do not know.

(Indeed I have ads turned off, so I don't see them; was this ad actually a generic google type ad instead of a BGG-purchased ad?)
 
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russ wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
I got to see that ad, because algorithms decided there was an off-chance I might click and buy stuff. I can only assume it is because I'm male, have interest in games and read some fantasy novels in my time.

I always thought the obviously game-related gamer-oriented ads which were presumably arranged directly with BGG and displayed by BGG (as opposed to generic google ads for whatever random stuff like shoes or keyrings or whatever) were simply shown to all BGG users (i.e. that BGG doesn't do all that demographic spying and targetting like google does).

But I do not know.

(Indeed I have ads turned off, so I don't see them; was this ad actually a generic google type ad instead of a BGG-purchased ad?)


It was in the sidebar, which I was informed is google-administered. They are generally way less classy than top banner ones.
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Shader10 wrote:
It was in the sidebar, which I was informed is google-administered. They are generally way less classy than top banner ones.

Aha, OK!

BTW back to the complaint itself: AFAIK it's always been the case that if you think an ad is problematic/inappropriate/offensive, you can simply directly geekmail the ad admin (chaddyboy_2000) to perhaps get a faster reaction. (But perhaps that policy has changed?)
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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russ wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that hobby get's saddled with consistent reminders it's aimed at men who just can't live without getting their titilliations from the hobby it self. There's literally infinite amount of porn available with just single address typed. I don't see why folk need their toy soldiers to compete with that.

FWIW that seems a slightly odd argument to me: I don't see anything wrong in principle with combining several hobby interests.
I guess for me, it's the particular hobbies being combined. I'm not into military history, but if you want to mix your love of military history and gaming, sure... fine... play wargames. I'm not going to be particularly bothered when the next table exposes me to some military history.

But regardless of how much you love porn, I don't particularly want to be around when you break that stuff out. And yeah, when you have some deckbuilder with sexualized teenage anime girls with anatomically impossible dimensions and <2% clothing and some non-gamer walks by and assumes that's what my hobby is, I'm not going to be happy to be lumped into the same group as you.

Some hobbies should be kept private and not put in the public spotlight.
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Russ Williams
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Thunkd wrote:
russ wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that hobby get's saddled with consistent reminders it's aimed at men who just can't live without getting their titilliations from the hobby it self. There's literally infinite amount of porn available with just single address typed. I don't see why folk need their toy soldiers to compete with that.

FWIW that seems a slightly odd argument to me: I don't see anything wrong in principle with combining several hobby interests.
I guess for me, it's the particular hobbies being combined. I'm not into military history, but if you want to mix your love of military history and gaming, sure... fine... play wargames. I'm not going to be particularly bothered when the next table exposes me to some military history.

But regardless of how much you love porn, I don't particularly want to be around when you break that stuff out. And yeah, when you have some deckbuilder with sexualized teenage anime girls with anatomically impossible dimensions and <2% clothing and some non-gamer walks by and assumes that's what my hobby is, I'm not going to be happy to be lumped into the same group as you.

Some hobbies should be kept private and not put in the public spotlight.

OK; to a large degree that sounds a separate issue, independent of having a game per se which combines some other hobby interest. I.e. you'd have essentially the same objection if someone at the next table was wearing a non-gaming related T-shirt with a porny picture on it, or was reading a non-gaming related porn magazine at the table, right?
 
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Marthian80 wrote:

I get that folks don't like to see it and showing this ad front and center on BGG is probably not a good idea but I'm against censorship or telling people what they can't and shouldn't like or produce.

(I only play games with "titilliations" if it fits the theme of the game)


I'm opposed to government censorship. But private people and corporations can take stances against ideas and images. One idea worth surpressing is that women are consummable, interchangable objects for men's pleasure. It's a completely fine stance for BGG or a company not to want to be involved in promoting a game with that message. I also get to make whatever uncharitable opinions I want about men who bring games with half naked school girls to public game nights. I don't need to know what turns someone on.
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russ wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
russ wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that hobby get's saddled with consistent reminders it's aimed at men who just can't live without getting their titilliations from the hobby it self. There's literally infinite amount of porn available with just single address typed. I don't see why folk need their toy soldiers to compete with that.

FWIW that seems a slightly odd argument to me: I don't see anything wrong in principle with combining several hobby interests.
I guess for me, it's the particular hobbies being combined. I'm not into military history, but if you want to mix your love of military history and gaming, sure... fine... play wargames. I'm not going to be particularly bothered when the next table exposes me to some military history.

But regardless of how much you love porn, I don't particularly want to be around when you break that stuff out. And yeah, when you have some deckbuilder with sexualized teenage anime girls with anatomically impossible dimensions and <2% clothing and some non-gamer walks by and assumes that's what my hobby is, I'm not going to be happy to be lumped into the same group as you.

Some hobbies should be kept private and not put in the public spotlight.

OK; to a large degree that sounds a separate issue, independent of having a game per se which combines some other hobby interest. I.e. you'd have essentially the same objection if someone at the next table was wearing a non-gaming related T-shirt with a porny picture on it, or was reading a non-gaming related porn magazine at the table, right?
Those would also be issues, but it's the co-mingling of games and porn and how the hobby gets perceived that's also an issue. I'd really like for people not to mentally answer "What types of games do boardgamers play?" with anything along the lines of "Miniatures games with a bunch of half-naked women in porn poses"... but it'd be really easy to get that impression these days.
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Kaixo wrote:
Marthian80 wrote:

I get that folks don't like to see it and showing this ad front and center on BGG is probably not a good idea but I'm against censorship or telling people what they can't and shouldn't like or produce.

(I only play games with "titilliations" if it fits the theme of the game)


I'm opposed to government censorship. But private people and corporations can take stances against ideas and images. One idea worth surpressing is that women are consummable, interchangable objects for men's pleasure. It's a completely fine stance for BGG or a company not to want to be involved in promoting a game with that message. I also get to make whatever uncharitable opinions I want about men who bring games with half naked school girls to public game nights. I don't need to know what turns someone on.


I agree totally that BGG (or any other company) has every right to censor certain games/art/ideas from their site. It's their job where to draw the line for what goes to far. And I can see that half naked ladies with demonic babies is not something they want to promote on the front page.

And you can complain and voice an opinion to people who bring games/art/ideas to a public place which are not in line with your ideas but those very same people can also tell you to mind your own business. Who are you to tell people what to like and do in a public place?

 
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Marthian80 wrote:
Who are you to tell people what to like and do in a public place?
A customer. Who can tell the business owner that they’ll lose her (and her friend’s and family’s) business if they allow this sort of thing.

Or... a host. Who can tell the offending party that such things aren’t welcome at her home.

Or... a guest. Who can tell the host that she’s not comfortable with such things and won’t return if they are allowed.

Whether those people listen or not is another matter, but she’s well within her rights to express her opinion to those people... because they all, either implicitly or explicitly, have let her know that her opinions are important to them.
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Marthian80 wrote:
. Who are you to tell people what to like and do in a public place?



Honestly,I'd probably not directly confront them. As a 5'2" woman, confronting a group of unknown men is pretty useless. And has the posibility of being unsafe. But as Bryan noted, a customer complaint has the power to affect change though.

What I will do is write those men off as gaming companions. I look for good judgement and empathy in friends. If a man can't understand why bringing erotica into a public non-sexual place is wrong, that's someone with poor judgement and doesnt care about the people, including children, that may see it.

I have no problem with anyone viewing erotica at home. But keep it at home or at places explicitly designed for it. If not, I'm going to write you off as an asshole or man-child. And tell others about your poor choice in behavior.
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Marthian80 wrote:
And you can complain and voice an opinion to people who bring games/art/ideas to a public place which are not in line with your ideas but those very same people can also tell you to mind your own business. Who are you to tell people what to like and do in a public place?


I'm a member of society, the public. You do realise that society's standards and mores are not fixed, but in a constant state of flux, yes? That they depend entirely on what the members of that society like and dislike, yes? And that telling people I don't like it / I have no problem with it is how social standards are constructed, yes?

I presume from the give and take you mention above in your own post that you do realise this - why then do you ask that question? I mean, if you do realise it, then you must also realise that it must be permissable for it to happen.
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Marthian80 wrote:
Who are you to tell people what to... do in a public place?

A person sharing that public space. Or do you believe that any person is free to do whatever they wish where ever they wish with no consequences or comment from those around them?
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