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Subject: Rating so low. Great game destroyed rss

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Sander Schippers
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mecha_streisand wrote:
Rednas79 wrote:

I see alot of new accounts just to rate this game...


Indeed, there are aroud 20 accounts created yesterday giving a 1 rating...

Looks like someone is on a quest to bring down the rating of this game.

I already put a question about this to BGG.
 
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Derek Bowen
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Billtje wrote:
Gert12555 wrote:
If components will be at EGG-level (The gallerist, Escape Plan, ...) I will upgrade it to a 9. If components turn out bad, then I will substract a point and give it a 7.

Tsaar wrote:
+1 for no problems with delays.


Why would anybody ever rate a game based on game components or publisher conduct? A game should be rated based only on the quality of the design and gameplay in my opinion.

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes the game ratings on BGG more and more non-relevant as the years goes by.

Whatever happened to the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover".


Not that I agree with what is happening here with the 1 ratings but components definitely matter. In this particular instance many are concerned about the wheels which are essential to actually playing the game and appear in quite a few photos from conventions to be warping. If I can't play the game because the components break after a few uses then yes that absolutely should factor into the game's rating.

There is a difference too between a manufacturing defect that impacts a few copies and a design flaw that impacts most of the majority. Again, for Barrage the concern is with a design flaw. Having the publisher admit they increased thickness of the tiles that go into the wheel because they were sliding under the arms reinforces the concern over it being a widespread issue and frankly their solution sounds like a short-sighted and temporary fix.
 
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Sander Schippers
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Well if the wheel breakes the replayability of the game is zero.
One good reason that the game is not good.
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Another 11 new accounts today rating this game a 1. Now we are down to 6.4

I can understand that people are upset, but this is just silly.

Also, it plays right into Cranio's strategy to pretend that valid negative feedback is coming from haters and trolls.
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Derek Bowen
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mecha_streisand wrote:
Another 11 new accounts today rating this game a 1. Now we are down to 6.4

I can understand that people are upset, but this is just silly.

Also, it plays right into Cranio's strategy to pretend that valid negative feedback is coming from haters and trolls.


As someone who is completely fed up with Cranio's behavior on this campaign, I agree wholly with this statement. I respect any other backer who feels that rating the game a 1 is the only way to get Cranio to respond, or feels this campaign has ruined the game for them, but creating obvious dummy accounts to tank the rating is silly and only serves to give them more ammunition to believe they didn't total fail their backers in this campaign.
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Sherman Oaks
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Luigi gave Barrage a 10 without stating he works for the company on his rating. It just says "Playtested!" which is also a dumb move.

We'll see what happens to the rating when the game comes out.
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Sander Schippers
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But wth a low rating now it can only climb fast.
Then it will get a high position in the weekly climb list.
 
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Becq
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As others have said, the '1' ratings are meaningless. I did a quick survey, and 17 out of the first 20 '1' ratings are fake accounts, registered in the last day. That's 85%. Odds are high that there are just one or two trolls behind most/all of them.

As to Luigi, if he gave it a '10' rating, he's apparently removed it. Will the trolls do likewise? Luigi's avatar/profile makes it clear that he works for Cranio, but I don't see anything similar in the troll accounts' profiles...
 
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Lars Hedke
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So I backed this. is it late... yeah for sure. are they doinga good job on this issue, not at all!

But I will rate the game by how much I like to play it and at the price tag it comes with how good the components are. If I pay 20 Euro for a game and I like it a lot I will give it a good rating not really looking at the components. with this price tag it needs to play well and have good components.

I will look twice before backing another Kickstarter from this company but if the game is really awesome you might just want to shut off all that negative stuff and wait until it comes. it is not like retail has it and I do not
 
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Sander Schippers
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Matthew M. (BoardGameGeek, LLC)
Jun 19, 18:36 CST
Hi Sander,

Thanks for alerting us. I've reviewed the ratings and discovered a number of fake accounts used to manipulate the ratings. Those accounts have been deleted.

Let me know if there is anything else I can help with.

-Matthew M.
(Octavian)
Community Manager
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Kirk Thomas
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Every time I read anything about this game / KS campaign, it's strained. I backed it with only an expectation that I would get a good game out of it all, at least at some point. It was a really expensive campaign to back, and if I review value for dollar spent in the future, it will stand out as a bad choice, just due to the cost part of the equation. Hopefully not for the game quality part of the equation, but a poor game could make it epic.

I still don't want to spend my game time focused on any of this, even though I think people have very valid critiques. As many have said, hopefully Cranio will learn from this and do better in the future, as great-value, well run KS campaigns are awesome.

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luigi 'bove' de feo
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About my 10, I've done that before starts to occupy of Barrage.
And I don't have to justify myself about it. I removed for honesty when I see 61 '1' that worry me.

But who opened this thread, did the best happened to Barrage lately these times, because 38 fake '1'it was a really bad move. And we thank you, Summy76.

We can understand the miscommunication but all of you know how much the game deserves better.


Thanks so much for noticing that. Thanks to Sanders Schippers, who loves/hates/loves/hates/loves/hates and understand.
Thanks all of you.


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Sander Schippers
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That is ok.
Fraud is just not the thing to do.
And my 1 will disappear when i playd the game. No worries.



And about that last thing. Yes that is totaly true.
I just got mixed feelings about this game and KS campaign

But i probably going to like it at the end and i expect a high rating.
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Becq
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Luigi's '10' made before working on Barrage isn't fraudulent. Creating fake accounts is.
 
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Pedro
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My 1 will disappear top when i playd barrage
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ariochk ariochk
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Stop lying and perhaps the 1's will desapear.

If the 1's strategy is the way to make cranio be responsible for all the lies, go ahead.
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Tilou
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Becq wrote:
Luigi's '10' made before working on Barrage isn't fraudulent. Creating fake accounts is.


Sander meant he signaled the 1s because there are fraudulent.
 
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If there just was a way to rate the company Cranio (e.g., on their official Facebook page...), then probably nobody would have given a 1 rating to the game, just to complain about the way Cranio handled this Kickstarter.
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Becq
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Ariochk wrote:
Stop lying and perhaps the 1's will desapear.

If the 1's strategy is the way to make cranio be responsible for all the lies, go ahead.

When you are given information by someone, and, believing it to be true, pass that information along to someone else, that's not 'lying'.
Providing a rating that you don't actually have a basis for (or even believe, according to the posts above) multiple times via fake accounts, then offering to rescind them only once an action is performed by Cranio is not only lying, but also basically extortion. For great justice?

In any case, I don't see how ratings extortion is likely to make the ships move any faster, or make third-party fulfillment centers pack boxes faster.

*shrug*
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Bill Hollebeke
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krede60 wrote:
Billtje wrote:
Gert12555 wrote:
If components will be at EGG-level (The gallerist, Escape Plan, ...) I will upgrade it to a 9. If components turn out bad, then I will substract a point and give it a 7.


Why would anybody ever rate a game based on game components or publisher conduct? A game should be rated based only on the quality of the design and gameplay in my opinion.

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes the game ratings on BGG more and more non-relevant as the years goes by.

Whatever happened to the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover".


Not that I agree with what is happening here with the 1 ratings but components definitely matter. In this particular instance many are concerned about the wheels which are essential to actually playing the game and appear in quite a few photos from conventions to be warping. If I can't play the game because the components break after a few uses then yes that absolutely should factor into the game's rating.

There is a difference too between a manufacturing defect that impacts a few copies and a design flaw that impacts most of the majority. Again, for Barrage the concern is with a design flaw. Having the publisher admit they increased thickness of the tiles that go into the wheel because they were sliding under the arms reinforces the concern over it being a widespread issue and frankly their solution sounds like a short-sighted and temporary fix.


I am not saying that components do not matter but I do not find it relevant towards the rating of a game. If I consult the rating of a game I want it to reflect how good the game is (not the quality of the cardboard used )

Don't get me wrong however. I also prefer that a game comes with good quality components or nice miniature figures but when I consult the rating of a game I want to feel confident that it will actually inform me if the game itself (mechanics, game play, player interaction...) is any good or not.

There are also worse reasons than component quality to influence your rating. I have even seen people giving '1' ratings because they don't like the theme of a game...

Sadly, because of all these "fake" ratings my confidence in the BGG ratings is decreasing year by year.
 
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ariochk ariochk
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Becq wrote:
Ariochk wrote:
Stop lying and perhaps the 1's will desapear.

If the 1's strategy is the way to make cranio be responsible for all the lies, go ahead.

When you are given information by someone, and, believing it to be true, pass that information along to someone else, that's not 'lying'.
Providing a rating that you don't actually have a basis for (or even believe, according to the posts above) multiple times via fake accounts, then offering to rescind them only once an action is performed by Cranio is not only lying, but also basically extortion. For great justice?

In any case, I don't see how ratings extortion is likely to make the ships move any faster, or make third-party fulfillment centers pack boxes faster.

*shrug*


There are two starting points;
1) believe that cranio has been honest in his communications (seems to be your case), in that case cranio has not lied.
2) believe that cranio has been dishonest in his communications (seems to be mine), in that case cranio has lied.

Maybe you're right and everything has been due to an unfortunate concatenation of errors, maybe the world is better than I think it is.

However, I believe that Cranio miscalculated his budget and instead of being honest and admitting that they were going to reduce the quality of the game components in order not to lose money (which at least I would have understood), they invented an absurd story (not so absurd since there are people like you, willing to believe any stupidity they say) that has caused almost no one to believe them.

Shame on you, Cranio.

PS: by the way, it seems that you accuse me of being guilty of false accounts. In case anyone has any doubts, I am not, but I encourage people to continue voting with a wonderful 1.
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Sander Schippers
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if i look at KS more and more games come with miniatures.
And indeed alot of people are rating on that.
But that can be positive but also negative.
Not everyone likes miniatures all the time.
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Andrea Bampi
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Billtje wrote:

I am not saying that components do not matter but I do not find it relevant towards the rating of a game. If I consult the rating of a game I want it to reflect how good the game is (not the quality of the cardboard used )
....
...when I consult the rating of a game I want to feel confident that it will actually inform me if the game itself (mechanics, game play, player interaction...) is any good or not.


I don't want to be involved in the fake rating issue, nor in the game discussion; but I just wanted to point out that your perception of BGG ratings is DEEPLY wrong. Since BGG doesn't feature different ratings for different aspects of the game (i.e. mechanics, component quality, graphics etc) you'll NEVER find a rating exclusively reflecting "how good the game is (in terms of playability)".
People give a general vote, so it's absolutely normal that component quality is considered as a parameter, and may even cause, for example, a 8-game with dramatically low component quality and terrible graphics to become a 6-game (I'm NOT referring to Barrage: it's a generic example).
You probably rate games with a different logic: it doesn't mean everyone else does the same. They (we) don't.
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Phil
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I would like to address a few Points here and Maybe give a different viewpoint on them.
Sorry it will be a rather long text (i have time as my potatoes are cooking)and probably Edge will autocorrect a few things although i dont want it to (dont have other Browsers installed on this device).


1.) "Components Arent important"
I started fresh into this hobby this year. I also started to participate in boardgame kickstarters since May and im diving deep into the community. But what ever was clear to me as a videogamer and occasional boardgamer was this: A game is the result of several aspects coming together forming one final and coherent piece. A boardgame is not only good because of its rules/design, its not good because it has great artwork and it is not good because it has a nice tray and organizing logic, a cool case or plastic miniatures.
A game has all of this coming together and one part of it being really bad, can have a significant influence.

Every person rates these parts differently. Visual appeal and component quality makes a large portion of my purchasing decisions or even decides on whether i become interested in it or not.
When i feel that a game cant transport a theme properly with its components and artwork, then there is a 90% chance i will just skip it.
It could be the best game since the coming of jesus, but i wont touch it.
Sure there are exceptions, but even then i would love a game much more if it had a better quality and visual appeal (im looking at you Wizard, you monstrosity of card illustrations a 3 year old could do better).
The message here is easy: Many people like high production quality and components, illustrations and organizing design matter to them.
And dependant on what you prefer a game can be rated based on only one of its aspects from the best thing in the universe or just ok, to horribly bad. The best looking game can be rated badly by a person because the person dislikes the gamedesign and thinks its rules are shallow. And a game could become the most complex and cool thing ever with infinite replayability, but be rated badly because it looks like pure garbage (i refer to the concept artwork of Slay the Spire as a nice example on that).
And as a result a game that has all-most of its aspects being in high quality, makes a much better game than a game that only succeeds in a few areas.
Lets have examples: I think Brass is among the games that just show real Boardgame Porn.
It looks nice, has great design, components are astonishing especially in the deluxe version.
If you want another example of what i imagine under perfect Boardgame Porn, then visit the "Island of El Dorado" Kickstarter page and go through it.
I could watch these gifs and videos presenting their meeples and foiled cards all day. Its just beautiful and high quality.
And when you have done that, look up a few Card Illustrations of Wizard and then come back and tell me with a straight face that "components dont matter". Yeah maybe they dont for you, but i personally would willingly pay more for a game with better components than one with worse.
Components matter and often enough they are even crucial to give players a better feeling for the game and "suck them into" the theme/universe.
Well, and can also start heated discussions when having a bit more problematic colour-choice (im looking at you Puerto Rico with your brown coloured field workers that i "import" with ships. Helps me to get into my evil role though.)

At the moment i think that "Last Aurora" is a good example of another project showing a lack of proper planning and misconception that could lead into a desaster.
I dont get why they force plastic miniature on all backers, increasing the production costs by a large amount while then having miniatures that also are arguably "not fitting".
Either the colour choice is off, the entire shapes or whatever.
But certainly i can say that i would rather have liked to see them adding more cards, maybe an expansion that expands the game with more modes and stick to wood and/or cardboard, instead of having a stretchgoal gallore where people have a high chance ending up with 50% of the components being plastic and the other 50% being wood, only to then never even using the plastic stuff. All that while the production became much more expensive for something "halfassed".
Instead make it an addon for those who want it.
I sometimes dont get that component logic for kickstarter projects and certainly i feel like especially the "upgrade" (i prefer wood honestly) to plastic could end up causing problems delaying the whole game for all backers because of a rather pointless upgrade of a few components (and not even all of them).


Long story short, components matter for good or worse. When i look at these insanely beautiful meeples of Island of El Dorado or the Iron Clays of Brass then i feel joy. And i would argue thats what playing is about. But it can also be a problem. When i look at Last Aurora then the components give me rather a feeling of scepticism and suddenly become one factor when asking myself whether i want to cancel my pledge or not.
Thats how much components can matter.

2.) "New accounts are dragging it down"
So what, deal with it. The age of accounts is absolutely irrelevant for the opinion voiced. Stop being an elitist a-hole and get a grip.
People like me visit and watch Boardgamegeek for years and still never had an account.
And why would it matter whether you created an account a week or a year before me? It doesnt magically make you more intelligent or your opinion more valuable. And certainly the scene isnt circling around this website, actually in many parts it isnt even that important at all.

3.) "I am worth more because i am longer here and backed a game on kickstarter"
Reread point 2.). What is added here, is that somehow Kickstarter Backers feel like the most important people in the scene. Which is why i despise kickstarter exclusive content.
Give stuff to as many people out there as possible, stop with exclusive nonsense.
Kickstarter creates an elitist group of people that think they somehow have a more valuable opinion on something because they supported it early.
And i can assure you one thing, coming from a person knowing both worlds very very well: The Boardgame Community and its Kickstarter Projects is much more hostile and elite in that regard, than the videogaming community. So much exclusivity for boardgames on kickstarter its insane. Somehow in the videogaming area its much harder to pull that off because the majority of the audience comes later and instantly complains like crazy as soon as the word "exclusive" pops up anywhere.
Seems to be normal in the boardgaming scene though.
But beware if both scenes meet each other. Thats the worst (Company of Heroes or Bloodborne).

4.)"A company hasnt to be rated, just its product"
No dude, you just lack a basic understanding on what our world and its systems are. A company or a creator is responsible for the product sold.
When the product is good but the company behind it is bad, its fair to rate the product negatively.
Head back to point 1.) for this, because the same explanation applies.
Its part of the product and how it is/was made. And some people think that the company and its image behind the product is much more important.

When i visit the supermarket and buy ice tea, then Nestea could be the best mix of sugar, concentrated chemical black tea and water stolen in africa, available. I would still rate it with the lowest score possible and not buy it, because the company behind the product is an important factor to be considered.
If people feel that the behaviour of a creator or company is important, let them have their opinion on that.
Just because the company behind it isnt important to you, must not mean it must not be a factor for other people out there. Just like others ignore component quality and would be fine by picking up a few stones at the street to use them as meeples, doesnt mean everyone else has to cater to those standards/expectations/demands.
You can have different standards/expectations/demands as others and thats fine.
Rating a company is part of capitalism, its part of business, its part of a creation process, its part of the interaction between customer, consumer, investor and the company or creator.
Its a matter of responsibility to rate a company even if the product has qualities. Ofcourse this has to happen thought and not exaggeration.
In the end though, thats your power as a customer to impact a company and its decisions. Show them what you dislike and they might change.
This only improves.


I further feel like people here seem to believe that somehow a rating score on boardgame geek is the end or the most important thing ever. Every human being in the boardgaming scene only forms an opinion with that score in mind.
Thats not the case, i can assure you. There are so many people out there buying boardgames at conventions that havent even heard of boardgamegeek.
Nor do they even look at the score to make a decision.
Stop being so pessimistic over a few people scoring a company negative/low.


TLDR:
Screw you, this is a forum for Boardgame enthusiasts. If you dislike reading, you probably have the wrong hobby.
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Becq
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Ariochk wrote:
Maybe you're right and everything has been due to an unfortunate concatenation of errors, maybe the world is better than I think it is.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the folk at Cranio are driven solely by a need to make life better for gamers, and care nothing about money. They are a business, and growing their business *by* making products that gamers enjoy is their purpose, as a company. So when I say that I don't think they are lying in an effort to put something over on people, I'm saying that for a company this size, trying to run the sort of scam that people are accusing them of is tantamount to corporate suicide, and I don't think they want to destroy their company. So logically, I think that these problems are *mistakes* that result from *communication issues*, rather than some sort of attempt to *scam* the gamer community, which can have no other end result than to destroy the company.

Quote:
PS: by the way, it seems that you accuse me of being guilty of false accounts. In case anyone has any doubts, I am not, but I encourage people to continue voting with a wonderful 1.

No, I think that there are a very small number of people making false accounts (fraud), and I have no idea who they are. I suspect the BGG mods can tell based on IP addresses, but I can't. You have stated, however, that you are providing false testimony to the BGG community (lying, much like you accuse Cranio of) and are trying to convince others to do likewise.
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