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Subject: Feedback about the game rules and card abilities rss

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El Bastardo
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Hey ho.

Just read the rules and wanted to give you some things to consider.

I don't know how finalized the design is but the following things I noticed instantly as suboptimal from a player who has played Magic since 1994:


1.
Drawing is at the end of the turn but discarding is at the start?
Why? This is so against all other games out there and I don't really see a reason here for being "different".
Having to discard at the start of my turn just because I forgot to manage my hand the turn before would suck so much and again I am used to the "standard model" forever.


2.
I see the ship "Ionblazer" as problematic because when you draw it in your opening hand and begin, as I understand the rules, you instantly damage the enemy core for two because "Hyperdrive" has no cost to use.
Quite aggressive so I hope you tested that case.


3.
Does the station core accumulate damage or do you have to reach the 5 in one attack wave?
These days in the CCG/TCG world the old question of health vs. defence value (the "Magic model" or the "Hearthstone model")?


4.
The General Rules talk about cards with "Play +1 Card" but there are also cards with "Play +2 Cards" so talk about them too.


5.
So ships are a one time use for attacking? They are really destroyed after an attack? That is counterintuitive. This has to stand out more in the rulebook!


6.
Also you get to steal destroyed cards? Stress that one more too.


7.
You should point out the fact that you can choose yourself with how many ships are are able to attack and do not have to attack with all of them at once.


8.
You should also say how to destroy the enemy station core (how to win/end the game) in a section.
It is understandable that the core has a shield of 5 and your combined attack has to reach or succeed that value but... a rulebook should always, always be complete and not ambiguous so state everything.
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Adam Wilk
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El Bastardo wrote:
Hey ho.

Just read the rules and wanted to give you some things to consider.

I don't know how finalized the design is but the following things I noticed instantly as suboptimal from a player who has played Magic since 1994:


1.
Drawing is at the end of the turn but discarding is at the start?
Why? This is so against all other games out there and I don't really see a reason here for being "different".
Having to discard at the start of my turn just because I forgot to manage my hand the turn before would suck so much and again I am used to the "standard model" forever.


2.
I see the ship "Ionblazer" as problematic because when you draw it in your opening hand and begin, as I understand the rules, you instantly damage the enemy core for two because "Hyperdrive" has no cost to use.
Quite aggressive so I hope you tested that case.


3.
Does the station core accumulate damage or do you have to reach the 5 in one attack wave?
These days in the CCG/TCG world the old question of health vs. defence value (the "Magic model" or the "Hearthstone model")?


4.
The General Rules talk about cards with "Play +1 Card" but there are also cards with "Play +2 Cards" so talk about them too.


5.
So ships are a one time use for attacking? They are really destroyed after an attack? That is counterintuitive. This has to stand out more in the rulebook!


6.
Also you get to steal destroyed cards? Stress that one more too.


7.
You should point out the fact that you can choose yourself with how many ships are are able to attack and do not have to attack with all of them at once.


8.
You should also say how to destroy the enemy station core (how to win/end the game) in a section.
It is understandable that the core has a shield of 5 and your combined attack has to reach or succeed that value but... a rulebook should always, always be complete and not ambiguous so state everything.


Hey! Thanks for taking the time and for being involved. It means a lot to me.

1. The idea behind drawing at the end of your turn and discarding at the start of your turn is just to keep the game speed up. In play testing, players (especially new players) who opted for +Draw openings took a LONG time deciding which card to discard at end of turn. Since there are so few cards between players, knowing which card they discard is a big deal.

2. Damage is not permanent or cumulative, so you would have to distribute 5 damage in a turn to win the game. (I may need to make this clearer in the rules)

3. Magic model, not hearthstone model

4. Yeah, might change that to Play +X cards to cover both cases.

5. Noted — I’ll add emphasis here. It’s important that they are discarded to keep the game moving and to keep pieces in play for both players. It’s a bit counter-intuitive considering most games, but that’s why!

6. Yeah, you draw any upgrades you destroy. I’ll emphasize this more as well. Actually, one of the big things for the rulebook that I want to address is emphasis —- I left it plaintext for now, but I will definitely add something to draw attention to key concepts.

7. Noted! Great point.

8. Agreed, might be a good fit for the last page.




Thanks a ton! You’ve got a few years of MTG on me, I started in ‘96 or ‘97 I think. Would love to keep this conversation going if other people have ideas.
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1. Epoch has a "Play +1 card" who is not between brackets. So that is not a passive neither an active ability. It is a one time ability you use when you play the card, isn'it? That kind of ability is not specified in the rules. Same goes for the "draw a card" of the Junkrig.

2. Dreadnought has a similar ability (discard a card) but specifies "after entering play".

3. I understand every other ability which is not passive are one time only when attacking.

4. Printing two decks, have you considered the possibility of a 4 players melee or 2vs2? Which additional rules should be implemented? A lot of years ago playing MTG somehow worked ok.

5. Have you considered adding as extensions to the core game three "factions" each one more specialized in one of the ion/ore/labour resources? So each player could take a deck or share the same.

I still not have played the game. Just discovered, read and printing to test it next Sunday.

Good luck!
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David Ladyman
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This looks interesting; it's always neat when you can create a complete game out of just a handful of cards. A few questions and comments:

1) I understand the use of the pixillated font to fit the feel of the game, but it's also hard to read for some eyes. Perhaps consider finding a font that is easier to read.

2) Along the same line, the "!" used to indicate upgrades with Def functionality is hard to read, especially since the rules don't explain what the "!" indicates. Perhaps making the defense number on those cards gold (or something like that) rather than adding "!" might be more intuitive. If so, you probably want to make the "Def" attribute gold also.
You might also recommend placing cards with Def toward the bottom/outer edge of a core station's stack.

3) I understand the effects of resources are cumulative, so that (for example) if you have a Junkrig and 3 Labour, you get both Play +1 Card (2 Labour) and +2 Power (3 Labour). However, is it intended that a Jackhammer with 4 Ore get +1 Power (for 1 Ore), +2 Power (for 3 Ore) and +3 Power (for 4 Ore), for a total of +6 Power?

4) There is a crucial difference between Abilities and Bonuses (Abilities can only be used when attacking; Passive Bonuses do not require attacking). However, I'm not finding a clear definition of how to distinguish between an Ability and a Bonus. (And are there non-passive Bonuses?)

5) It isn't always clear that an effect is passive. For example:
Must I attack with a Centurion or Epoch (etc.) to be able to play their additional cards?
Is the Dreadnaught's "discard a card" a passive effect, an Ability, a bonus, or something else entirely?
Is the Junkrig "Draw a card" an Ability (only usable when attacking), a Passive Bonus, or something else?

6) Ionblazer can destroy any ship. Is this in addition to its 2 Power, or must I choose one or the other when using it? (I assume it can use both Ability and Power at the same time, but a clarification would be handy.)

7) I assume that when I play "any ship" or "any upgrade" it includes any of mine, as well? (Again, that's what it seems to say, but a clarification will avoid player arguments. )

Thanks, and good luck!
David the Rules Lawyer
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Adam Wilk
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Roger_Roca wrote:
1. Epoch has a "Play +1 card" who is not between brackets. So that is not a passive neither an active ability. It is a one time ability you use when you play the card, isn'it? That kind of ability is not specified in the rules. Same goes for the "draw a card" of the Junkrig.

2. Dreadnought has a similar ability (discard a card) but specifies "after entering play".

3. I understand every other ability which is not passive are one time only when attacking.

4. Printing two decks, have you considered the possibility of a 4 players melee or 2vs2? Which additional rules should be implemented? A lot of years ago playing MTG somehow worked ok.

5. Have you considered adding as extensions to the core game three "factions" each one more specialized in one of the ion/ore/labour resources? So each player could take a deck or share the same.

I still not have played the game. Just discovered, read and printing to test it next Sunday.

Good luck!


Thanks so much!

1. There is work to be done on my side clarifying which abilities are passive vs active. Attack abilities only activate when attacking, unless indicated as [Passive].

For example, the Epoch only grants Play +1 Card when attacking, not when played from your hand. The Junkrig provides a draw when attacking, and potentially some attack power and Play +1 Card when its thresholds are met.

Maybe a symbol indicating attacking next to each attack ability would help? This will get tweaked before release.

2. The dreadnought’s penalty is unique, and is to trigger when played from your hand. He’s the only card like that in the game. I think by adding symbols next to each attack ability, this would stand out more as a unique case.

3. Yeah, correct — whether they have a resource threshold or not, attack abilities only trigger when the ship attacks. So you “spend” your attacking ship to get its attack ability effect, then you add its damage to your pool to distribute.

4. I’d love to come up with a way to do multi-headed or 2v2 or Free For All style games. I’ve just been really focused on the 1v1 experience. I’d love to see if other people come up with interesting game modes.

5. Sounds like it could be a cool idea — I’m excited to have an excuse to think up new directions this game can go. Still can’t believe I’ve got a few hundred games to ship!


Thanks again for all the questions, this really helps me bring it all together.
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Adam Wilk
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dladyman wrote:
This looks interesting; it's always neat when you can create a complete game out of just a handful of cards. A few questions and comments:

1) I understand the use of the pixillated font to fit the feel of the game, but it's also hard to read for some eyes. Perhaps consider finding a font that is easier to read.

2) Along the same line, the "!" used to indicate upgrades with Def functionality is hard to read, especially since the rules don't explain what the "!" indicates. Perhaps making the defense number on those cards gold (or something like that) rather than adding "!" might be more intuitive. If so, you probably want to make the "Def" attribute gold also.
You might also recommend placing cards with Def toward the bottom/outer edge of a core station's stack.

3) I understand the effects of resources are cumulative, so that (for example) if you have a Junkrig and 3 Labour, you get both Play +1 Card (2 Labour) and +2 Power (3 Labour). However, is it intended that a Jackhammer with 4 Ore get +1 Power (for 1 Ore), +2 Power (for 3 Ore) and +3 Power (for 4 Ore), for a total of +6 Power?

4) There is a crucial difference between Abilities and Bonuses (Abilities can only be used when attacking; Passive Bonuses do not require attacking). However, I'm not finding a clear definition of how to distinguish between an Ability and a Bonus. (And are there non-passive Bonuses?)

5) It isn't always clear that an effect is passive. For example:
Must I attack with a Centurion or Epoch (etc.) to be able to play their additional cards?
Is the Dreadnaught's "discard a card" a passive effect, an Ability, a bonus, or something else entirely?
Is the Junkrig "Draw a card" an Ability (only usable when attacking), a Passive Bonus, or something else?

6) Ionblazer can destroy any ship. Is this in addition to its 2 Power, or must I choose one or the other when using it? (I assume it can use both Ability and Power at the same time, but a clarification would be handy.)

7) I assume that when I play "any ship" or "any upgrade" it includes any of mine, as well? (Again, that's what it seems to say, but a clarification will avoid player arguments. )

Thanks, and good luck!
David the Rules Lawyer


Hi David! Thanks so much for taking the time to join the discussion.

1. Understood — and I’m considering it. I’m actively looking for the perfect font to marry readability with the retro look and theme. If I find a better fit, I will absolutely roll with it! Open for suggestions, too.

2. This is a great one, and something I’ve gone back and forth with. Originally, DEF cards had a different colour in the tableau, and a huge chunk of early testers found the colour change confusing. So I switched to a symbol. I’m still on the fence about the right way to go with this one.

That’s a great suggestion about the DEF cards being positioned on the outer edge. Makes it easier to parse the board.

3. That’s correct, the Jackhammer gets nasty. +6 power potentially from Ore, and his 1 power he starts with can make him a 7 power ship.

4. This is a good point as well. Someone else mentioned this above. I think the best way for me to address this is to add a symbol that indicates an attack ability, to make it really understandable when each ability triggers.

5. This kind of relates to the previous point, and I’ll clarify each attack ability with a symbol to help it make more sense. Centurion and Epoch must attack for their abilities to trigger, they are attack abilities, as all ship abilities are unless indicated by [Passive].

The Dreadnought is a special case and is the only card in the game with a discard-on-play effect. I think by adding attack ability indicators on all the ships, it will make it more clear.

6. Correct, you first use your abilities, and then you gain the power for your attack pool. I’ll try to add some clarity there.

7. Absolutely, you can return your own cards! I can’t think of many cases that would be wise in this game, but you could totally do it.
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Odd Tatu
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To me the ! mark for defense cards was perfectly clear. It will be very easy to notice them when cards will be stacked next to the core. However, it is true that the rules don't state explicitly the symbol's meaning.

I also think that the rules were quite explicit stating you have to defeat cards (including the core) at once -damage does not carry over the next turns.
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El Bastardo
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Great to see that this thread started a conversation.

I open these "rulebook threads" regularly for various (Kickstarter) games but most of the time they stay relatively empty.


Regarding the "draw at end, discard at start" rules:
Yeah I get that.
From a design standpoint this sounds easier on newer players.
You are just screwing with any other seasoned players' brains in the process
We can get used to that too ^_-


I think I am a bit more confused about the active/passive abilities now, when they trigger and how often but I think I get it.


Regarding the "cumulative recourse generation": I know you shouldn't compare to other games but as a shorthand it would be easy to compare that logic (for newer players) to the mechanism of "7 Wonders (Duel)".


There is templating to be done:

- What denotes active/passive abilities?

- What is the delimiter where one ability ends and the next starts? At the moment it's just a "line break" but e.g. on the Ionblazer the ability text wraps to the next line and this only works because it is the last ability text on the card.

- Can passive abilities be used more than once per player turn? Example Helix. Can it send back two upgrades if I generate four Ion?

- Linked to that can passive abilities be used every turn e.g. I play an Ionblazer and destroy an enemy ship and end my turn. Next turn can I destroy another one? That would make it a really strange mix of aggro card (Hyperdrive) and control card.

- The Freighter spells out the word "passive". How does this ability work? I assume the ship, played as a ship, generates one ore.
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Adam Wilk
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El Bastardo wrote:
Great to see that this thread started a conversation.

I open these "rulebook threads" regularly for various (Kickstarter) games but most of the time they stay relatively empty.


Regarding the "draw at end, discard at start" rules:
Yeah I get that.
From a design standpoint this sounds easier on newer players.
You are just screwing with any other seasoned players' brains in the process
We can get used to that too ^_-


I think I am a bit more confused about the active/passive abilities now, when they trigger and how often but I think I get it.


Regarding the "cumulative recourse generation": I know you shouldn't compare to other games but as a shorthand it would be easy to compare that logic (for newer players) to the mechanism of "7 Wonders (Duel)".


There is templating to be done:

- What denotes active/passive abilities?

- What is the delimiter where one ability ends and the next starts? At the moment it's just a "line break" but e.g. on the Ionblazer the ability text wraps to the next line and this only works because it is the last ability text on the card.

- Can passive abilities be used more than once per player turn? Example Helix. Can it send back two upgrades if I generate four Ion?

- Linked to that can passive abilities be used every turn e.g. I play an Ionblazer and destroy an enemy ship and end my turn. Next turn can I destroy another one? That would make it a really strange mix of aggro card (Hyperdrive) and control card.

- The Freighter spells out the word "passive". How does this ability work? I assume the ship, played as a ship, generates one ore.


There is no way that a discussion thread like this could be bad! I’m surprised people don’t encourage discussion. Even if only half of the suggestions here can make it over to the design, it’s goin to be a much better game.

All abilities can only be activated once — that’s a good catch. That needs to be clear.

Ionblazer is a good example— when you play Ionblazer, you can attack with him immediately because he has [Hyperdrive]. If you meet the 2 ION threshold, you can use his attack ability and destroy a ship when you choose to attack. But like all ships, they are destroyed at end of turn when you choose to attack. If you were to draw Ionblazer again, you could do the same thing.

You are spot on about the freighter. Passive is to indicate that you can collect that particular bonus without having to attack with it. So the Freighter generates ore, the Vessel generates labour, the Magnet generates ion, and the Lotus generates one of each. The Freighter, Vessel, and Magnet each have additional abilities that can be potentially used if their thresholds are met AND they are used to attack, which means they are discarded/sacrificed/destroyed at the end of your turn.

I think the extra icon to clarify “attack ability” vs “passive” will help all of this get much clearer. This thread has helped a ton in that regard.
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Adam Wilk
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Zerbique wrote:
To me the ! mark for defense cards was perfectly clear. It will be very easy to notice them when cards will be stacked next to the core. However, it is true that the rules don't state explicitly the symbol's meaning.

I also think that the rules were quite explicit stating you have to defeat cards (including the core) at once -damage does not carry over the next turns.


Yeah, I left the “!” Out of the rules, but it might be worth a line if it eases confusion

And yes, that’s very correct — no damage carries over because I wanted this game to have almost no board upkeep — all information you need is on the table, all the time. No tokens, trackers, etc.

But it’s not what everyone expects, so I can understand some difficulty!
 
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El Bastardo
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Nice.

After reading rules for and playing various card-based games recently I have quite the mix of "conventions" of word choices in my short-term memory at the moment.

All of the games are good but it is quite the "metal overhead" to process and remember all of the different methodologies and word choices to convey relatively similar rules.


I am happy to see that this game is really easy on at least my TCG/CCG-trained brain.

What I want to say is: This game is really intuitive and easy to grasp and execute so you can utilize your full mental capabilities to strategize.

The challenge for the rulebook and the card layout really is to convey these things easily and fast because once you got it, almost everything is familiar, makes sense and works.

All of the texts "just" have to be as disambiguous and not ambivalent as possible ^_^



As for the "how to denote the defender ability" question, ! or different color, I am for the !

When you template the cards in a way that the same ability types are always at the same position on the card and align in a horizontal line, it's easy to spot the ! because your eyes will know at which position to look for it.
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Adamo Adamo
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Few questions about the rules that are not covered in rulebook:

1. I can attack any number of ships in one turn ?
a. It is counted as an one attack ?
b. Can I attack two times:
for example: first attack with rockbreaker, I draw a card and then I play card I just draw (for example Sparkwraith with hyperdrive) and attack again?
2. Haw exactly the damage is resolved: for example I did 6 damage and opponent has 4 upgrades (3,2,2,2): Can I choose how to redistribute damage: in this case destroying 3 upgrades? When I did this? just after the attack or at the end of the turn?
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Ionblazer seems a bit OP. A lot of times is 2 card for 1 instantly.
Btw... with the Magnet, can you attack, do the damage and then return the Magnet (or other attacking ships of yours) to your hand?
Because that seems also a bit OP, mostly if you combine it with the Ionblazer!
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Adam Wilk
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BuliwyfDeNice wrote:
Few questions about the rules that are not covered in rulebook:

1. I can attack any number of ships in one turn ?
a. It is counted as an one attack ?
b. Can I attack two times:
for example: first attack with rockbreaker, I draw a card and then I play card I just draw (for example Sparkwraith with hyperdrive) and attack again?
2. Haw exactly the damage is resolved: for example I did 6 damage and opponent has 4 upgrades (3,2,2,2): Can I choose how to redistribute damage: in this case destroying 3 upgrades? When I did this? just after the attack or at the end of the turn?


Thanks for keeping the conversation alive!

1. Correct, any or all of your ships, in any order, at any time. You may choose to attack “staggered” — for example, attacking with a big Jackhammer to break two upgrades, taking those two upgrades to your hand, and then playing one afterwards. Then you may choose to attack again with a different ship or set of ships.

Your example with Rockbreaker is good! That’s correct — you can attack with Rockbreaker, destroy something (or just pool the damage for later), draw a card with hyperdrive, and attack with the new card instantly. If you so choose.

2. You get to choose when and how it is distributed. For example, you might choose to attack with all of your ships, use their attack abilities to manipulate the board, and then deal all your damage at once. Or you may choose to pool your damage and spend half of it on destroying an upgrade, taking it to your hand, and then playing it for your own benefit.

I hope this makes sense — the ability to distribute damage in to chunks makes for a lot of tactical choice.
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Adam Wilk
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Roger_Roca wrote:
Ionblazer seems a bit OP. A lot of times is 2 card for 1 instantly.
Btw... with the Magnet, can you attack, do the damage and then return the Magnet (or other attacking ships of yours) to your hand?
Because that seems also a bit OP, mostly if you combine it with the Ionblazer!


I set out to design one of those “everything is OP so it works” kind of games, and the Ion-based cards are definitely strong. He might be a bit too strong. But that said, the real weakness of the Hyperdrive cards is that you have to hang on to them and wait for the right time, and hand size is at a premium in this game.

The Ionblazer has bounced around from 1 damage to 2 damage, from [ion ion] to [ion ion ion] ability cost, and then back and forth. I’m pretty confident he’s in the right place now.

Re: the Magnet. Yeah, under the current rules you can absolutely do that. Pretty nasty. But, keep in mind in most turns you will only have 1 play per turn, so your turn would look like:

1. Attack with Magnet + Ionblazer
2. Blow up a ship with Ionblazer ability, and add Ionblazer’s damage to your pool
3. Return Ionblazer with Magnet’s ability, and add Magnet’s damage to your pool
4. Play Ionblazer again (using your 1 play per turn)
5. Attack with Ionblazer again, blowing up a ship, and adding Ionblazer’s damage to your pool again

That’s a pretty cool combo. Would have to see how it plays out in game. It’s also fairly resource dependant, as you’d need 1Lab 1Ore 1Ion + Magnet on the board, so there may be some counterplay from an attack limiting your resources.

It’s worth mentioning that in-game, combos like this are difficult to pull off because of the 1-play per turn limit. If you play an upgrade, it enables your combo’s threshold cost, but uses up your one play for the turn. If you play an upgrade, and then wait a turn before trying to execute your combo, you leave yourself open for an attack that wrecks your plan.

TBH I’m far more concerned about the Magnet being broken than the Ionblazer
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Adamo Adamo
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Angrycyborggames wrote:
BuliwyfDeNice wrote:
Few questions about the rules that are not covered in rulebook:

1. I can attack any number of ships in one turn ?
a. It is counted as an one attack ?
b. Can I attack two times:
for example: first attack with rockbreaker, I draw a card and then I play card I just draw (for example Sparkwraith with hyperdrive) and attack again?
2. Haw exactly the damage is resolved: for example I did 6 damage and opponent has 4 upgrades (3,2,2,2): Can I choose how to redistribute damage: in this case destroying 3 upgrades? When I did this? just after the attack or at the end of the turn?


Thanks for keeping the conversation alive!

1. Correct, any or all of your ships, in any order, at any time. You may choose to attack “staggered” — for example, attacking with a big Jackhammer to break two upgrades, taking those two upgrades to your hand, and then playing one afterwards. Then you may choose to attack again with a different ship or set of ships.

Your example with Rockbreaker is good! That’s correct — you can attack with Rockbreaker, destroy something (or just pool the damage for later), draw a card with hyperdrive, and attack with the new card instantly. If you so choose.

2. You get to choose when and how it is distributed. For example, you might choose to attack with all of your ships, use their attack abilities to manipulate the board, and then deal all your damage at once. Or you may choose to pool your damage and spend half of it on destroying an upgrade, taking it to your hand, and then playing it for your own benefit.

I hope this makes sense — the ability to distribute damage in to chunks makes for a lot of tactical choice.


Thx for the clarification.

I think that it should be added in the rule book.

Also I think that information about sequence during attack should be explained:

I am not sure if this is correct:

1. Declare attacking ships
2. Use the activated abilities of the ships in any order
3. Sum up damage of the remaining ships

So I don't understand how this is possible:

Angrycyborggames wrote:

1. Attack with Magnet + Ionblazer
2. Blow up a ship with Ionblazer ability, and add Ionblazer’s damage to your pool
3. Return Ionblazer with Magnet’s ability, and add Magnet’s damage to your pool
4. Play Ionblazer again (using your 1 play per turn)
5. Attack with Ionblazer again, blowing up a ship, and adding Ionblazer’s damage to your pool again


In the rulebook it is stated that:
1. Resolve any abilities from your attacking ship
2. Add your ships power to your damage pool

So it should be like this:

1. Attack with Magnet + Ionblazer
2. Blow up a ship with Ionblazer ability, and add Ionblazer’s damage to your pool
3. Return Ionblazer with Magnet’s ability
4. Add Magnet’s damage to your pool
5. Play Ionblazer again (using your 1 play per turn)
6. Attack with Ionblazer again, blowing up a ship, and adding Ionblazer’s damage to your pool again

Also one more question: I assume that ability once activated is valid until the end of the turn even if the ship is gone or the resources changes.

For example: Battlestar ability activated during first attack, will be still activated during second attack even if Battlestar was returned to hand by Magnet ability ?

And my general thought: for me much more intuitive would be if the ships were destroyed after the attack (after damage is done).

Generally speaking I think that the game is really nicely done. Also it is nice of you that pnp are freely available. I think that what has to be done is to polish up the rulebook. The rules are simple, but there is many card interactions, there should be no place for guesses. Also you can add some examples of comboes to help better understand the game if somebody is playing for the first time.
 
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Adam Wilk
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BuliwyfDeNice wrote:
Angrycyborggames wrote:
BuliwyfDeNice wrote:
Few questions about the rules that are not covered in rulebook:

1. I can attack any number of ships in one turn ?
a. It is counted as an one attack ?
b. Can I attack two times:
for example: first attack with rockbreaker, I draw a card and then I play card I just draw (for example Sparkwraith with hyperdrive) and attack again?
2. Haw exactly the damage is resolved: for example I did 6 damage and opponent has 4 upgrades (3,2,2,2): Can I choose how to redistribute damage: in this case destroying 3 upgrades? When I did this? just after the attack or at the end of the turn?


Thanks for keeping the conversation alive!

1. Correct, any or all of your ships, in any order, at any time. You may choose to attack “staggered” — for example, attacking with a big Jackhammer to break two upgrades, taking those two upgrades to your hand, and then playing one afterwards. Then you may choose to attack again with a different ship or set of ships.

Your example with Rockbreaker is good! That’s correct — you can attack with Rockbreaker, destroy something (or just pool the damage for later), draw a card with hyperdrive, and attack with the new card instantly. If you so choose.

2. You get to choose when and how it is distributed. For example, you might choose to attack with all of your ships, use their attack abilities to manipulate the board, and then deal all your damage at once. Or you may choose to pool your damage and spend half of it on destroying an upgrade, taking it to your hand, and then playing it for your own benefit.

I hope this makes sense — the ability to distribute damage in to chunks makes for a lot of tactical choice.


Thx for the clarification.

I think that it should be added in the rule book.

Also I think that information about sequence during attack should be explained:

I am not sure if this is correct:

1. Declare attacking ships
2. Use the activated abilities of the ships in any order
3. Sum up damage of the remaining ships

So I don't understand how this is possible:

Angrycyborggames wrote:

1. Attack with Magnet + Ionblazer
2. Blow up a ship with Ionblazer ability, and add Ionblazer’s damage to your pool
3. Return Ionblazer with Magnet’s ability, and add Magnet’s damage to your pool
4. Play Ionblazer again (using your 1 play per turn)
5. Attack with Ionblazer again, blowing up a ship, and adding Ionblazer’s damage to your pool again


In the rulebook it is stated that:
1. Resolve any abilities from your attacking ship
2. Add your ships power to your damage pool

So it should be like this:

1. Attack with Magnet + Ionblazer
2. Blow up a ship with Ionblazer ability, and add Ionblazer’s damage to your pool
3. Return Ionblazer with Magnet’s ability
4. Add Magnet’s damage to your pool
5. Play Ionblazer again (using your 1 play per turn)
6. Attack with Ionblazer again, blowing up a ship, and adding Ionblazer’s damage to your pool again

Also one more question: I assume that ability once activated is valid until the end of the turn even if the ship is gone or the resources changes.

For example: Battlestar ability activated during first attack, will be still activated during second attack even if Battlestar was returned to hand by Magnet ability ?

And my general thought: for me much more intuitive would be if the ships were destroyed after the attack (after damage is done).

Generally speaking I think that the game is really nicely done. Also it is nice of you that pnp are freely available. I think that what has to be done is to polish up the rulebook. The rules are simple, but there is many card interactions, there should be no place for guesses. Also you can add some examples of comboes to help better understand the game if somebody is playing for the first time.


Noted! I may opt to simplify the way it is processed to make it a bit cleaner.

And absolutely -- the next few weeks are going to be mostly adjusting the rulebook and cardtext using feedback from everybody to make sure the game is getting across cleanly and clearly.

I'm also debating whether it makes more sense to include everything in the game's rulebook, or to have a reference / website for more particular interactions. Obviously I'd prefer to keep everything in the box, but another resource might be useful?
 
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El Bastardo
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Having a card reference online is a nice supplemental addition but if possible it should stay an addition and mirror the information in the rulebook.

If you can fit it in there a card reference at the end would be great.

Put that rulebook up online too as a PDF document download to multiply and to give each player a copy.


Here again the scale of the game limits the possibilities but in general in this day and age I expect every (good) game involving cards to have a complete card reference at minimum and the really good ones have an FAQ section too with card interaction specialty rules.


Something like that I can imaging for this game a a bonus download if you want to create that.


After reading your "design blog entries" I know that you like this sort of stuff ^_^
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David Brain
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El Bastardo wrote:
1.
Drawing is at the end of the turn but discarding is at the start?
Why? This is so against all other games out there and I don't really see a reason here for being "different".
Whereas I would disagree with you - the "standard" model is far more often now to draw at the end of turn, simply because it reduces the decision tree enormously: you no longer have to take your "new" card(s) into account when considering what to do; instead you can do your planning during the downtime of the other player's turn.

Which is why I still* dislike the ship that has a "draw" effect even though it doesn't really mess with the game structure; I think that effect should be confined to the main station so that players only get new cards as part of the end step. But it's clearly not that big a deal given the single card action structure of the game.

*I commented about it on reddit some months back. laugh Glad to see the game making the next step.
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El Bastardo
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As I wrote, after reading the reasoning behind it I understand it.

Me personally as a player I don't "care" for it because I think "more is more is better is more".

I mean in TCGs a cornerstone of strategy as well as a measurement of who is ahead is drawing and card advantage.
Having more options at any given time means a better board position.

So yeah, give me more options ^_^ in general.

In this game, if it helps newer players, sure.
It's only a small change I have to remember and get used to.


------------------


Back to rulebook stuff.


1.
Add a passage about who begins the game and how this decision is made.
I mean something like "use a random method and the winner can decide which player should go first".


2.
Add a passage clarifying that you can attack your opponents core directly even if he has upgrades on it if these updates do not have defender.
I just read the rules back-to-back again and it is talked about attacking upgrades and getting those into your hand. I can imagine that some players might get a wrong impression.

As I read it at the moment you can attack any upgrade and the core as you wish unless an upgrade has the defender ability in which case you have to get rid of all of those first.

I think the current wording could be interpreted that when choosing which upgrade to attack you have to choose defender first but that you have to destroy all of the upgrades first before you are allowed to attack the core...

Now I am not sure myself anymore.
Do the shields from the upgrades add to the 5 of the core or do they stay separate units and you can destroy the core even if (non-defender) upgrades are attached?


3.
Restructure the part about "taking a turn".

At the moment you segmented the turn into three steps/actions and you say that you can take as many of those as you want.
But step three is end your turn. If that you be voluntary... ^_-

To borrow from the well-known Magic structure it's basically two phases, main and end and you can do two different actions during your main phase which can be made in any order and they are:
a) Play one card one time. Can be repeated for each "Play +1 card" you generate.
b) Attack with one or more ships at the same time. Can be repeated as often as you want to/are able to.
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Massimiliano Luisi
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Question: the resource icon doesn't grant any special ability, while DEF and DRAW actually do something.
Shouldn't be better to emphasize that?
Like, using an Italic font to make it more clear that the resource description is just "lore"?
Same with the introduction and so on.
Same thing with HYPERDRIVE: isn't better to just have an icon or his text indicated somewhere as a special ability with an effect (like with the Play +1).


also, just to be clear, if i have 3 battery icon, i can activate ALL the battery icon ability that i have on ships, right?
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Adam Wilk
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MegaPikaKeroro wrote:
Question: the resource icon doesn't grant any special ability, while DEF and DRAW actually do something.
Shouldn't be better to emphasize that?
Like, using an Italic font to make it more clear that the resource description is just "lore"?
Same with the introduction and so on.
Same thing with HYPERDRIVE: isn't better to just have an icon or his text indicated somewhere as a special ability with an effect (like with the Play +1).


also, just to be clear, if i have 3 battery icon, i can activate ALL the battery icon ability that i have on ships, right?


Hi, thanks for joining in the chat.

That’s correct, and a good idea — the plan is to iconify DEF and DRAW so they stand out a bit more. Italics might make sense.

Hyperdrive is also a candidate for iconifying, or putting some clarifying descriptor alongside the ability (like they do in MTG)

And yes, that’s correct — 3 ion would mean ALL 1, 2 or 3 ion abilities activate. The Jackhammer is a good example — with 4 ore, he gets +6 total power, making him 7 power.
 
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Adam Wilk
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El Bastardo wrote:
As I wrote, after reading the reasoning behind it I understand it.

Me personally as a player I don't "care" for it because I think "more is more is better is more".

I mean in TCGs a cornerstone of strategy as well as a measurement of who is ahead is drawing and card advantage.
Having more options at any given time means a better board position.

So yeah, give me more options ^_^ in general.

In this game, if it helps newer players, sure.
It's only a small change I have to remember and get used to.

------------------


Yeah, card advantage is very strong in this game, but it manifests a bit differently in-game. The difference between having 4 potential plays and 6 potential plays is quite strong.

Quote:


Back to rulebook stuff.


1.
Add a passage about who begins the game and how this decision is made.
I mean something like "use a random method and the winner can decide which player should go first".


Had this in originally, cut it for space. Might re-add it.
Quote:

2.
Add a passage clarifying that you can attack your opponents core directly even if he has upgrades on it if these updates do not have defender.
I just read the rules back-to-back again and it is talked about attacking upgrades and getting those into your hand. I can imagine that some players might get a wrong impression.

As I read it at the moment you can attack any upgrade and the core as you wish unless an upgrade has the defender ability in which case you have to get rid of all of those first.

I think the current wording could be interpreted that when choosing which upgrade to attack you have to choose defender first but that you have to destroy all of the upgrades first before you are allowed to attack the core...


Will clarify this, this section could use a bit of an overhaul.

Quote:

Now I am not sure myself anymore.
Do the shields from the upgrades add to the 5 of the core or do they stay separate units and you can destroy the core even if (non-defender) upgrades are attached?


They stay as separate, independent units. That’s correct, if non-defender units are attached, they can be ignored. The core is exposed unless a defender is part of the tableau.

Quote:

3.
Restructure the part about "taking a turn".

At the moment you segmented the turn into three steps/actions and you say that you can take as many of those as you want.
But step three is end your turn. If that you be voluntary... ^_-

To borrow from the well-known Magic structure it's basically two phases, main and end and you can do two different actions during your main phase which can be made in any order and they are:
a) Play one card one time. Can be repeated for each "Play +1 card" you generate.
b) Attack with one or more ships at the same time. Can be repeated as often as you want to/are able to.


Great idea. Less steps makes me happy. I just wanted the third step to clearly indicate that is when the drawing happens, but that could be its own section, potentially.
 
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Massimiliano Luisi
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Angrycyborggames wrote:

And yes, that’s correct — 3 ion would mean ALL 1, 2 or 3 ion abilities activate. The Jackhammer is a good example — with 4 ore, he gets +6 total power, making him 7 power.


EDIT: after re-reading the rulebook i noticed that resource-effect are activated only if the ship attacks.
(i was going to make a big question regarding resource menagement lol)

 
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Great feedback on everything.

Regarding the "!" symbol on the cards, I think it muddles a bit the reading (I keep reading it as 13 or 31 before taking a second read and seeing the ! proper) with the font Adam choose.

What I'd say is to make only the box where the number is a different color, like the Base/Outpost def value in Star Realms for example.

If, for example, the backdrop for normal (non DEF) cards is "white", then the number (and only the number) backdrop for DEF card would by light gray. Such a change would be noted in the rulebook, ofc.

I don't think change the whole background of the card is a wise choice. Only drawing attention to the DEF number is a preferable choice.
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