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Subject: It was a Struggle to like this game rss

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Mike West
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Finally got around to playing this for the first time over the weekend as one of my friend's brought this over for a session.

Knowing how highly rated it was meant it was pretty exciting to get it to the table, stagger through the rules (I think we did a decent job for the most part) and set up the game.

I'll start with The Good.

The theming is great. Being born in the early 70's, i still remember a bunch of the mid war elements, and obviously pretty much all of the Late war stuff and playing the game really did feel like being involved in the Cold War.

We both enjoyed the wide range of choices each turn and the decisions therein. Where to spend influence, which events to trigger and which to ditch to the space race, what is your opponent trying to do, how do you trick them into concentrating in one area when you are about to score another, we loved all the intricacies that the game gives you as a player.

The Medium.

It felt like the first play of the game wouldn't be as good as the second, or the third. Not knowing about the wars, or Fidel, or Nato, or anything else in the decks meant we weren't doing much forward thinking and our gameplay with regards to the future draws was more reactive to what we saw than what was coming. I assume that would get better and add a lot more depth.

The Bad

So far, so good eh? But both of us at the end of the game agreed, we actually didn't like the game enough to want to ever play it again in it's current state, why was that, well, it was twofold...

Random Dice Rolls - My goodness, for such a highly ranked game, how do all of you put up with the huge number of dice rolls that affect almost everything you do!

My opponent threw a 5 or 6 on every coup attempt, I failed 6/6 Space Race Attempts, he succeeded 6/7, i did however succeed in most rolls used to remove opponent counters in stable countries (Forgot the name right now!)

But these random dice rolls slowly dragged the fun out of all the in depth and awesome strategy we were planning.

Every time my opponent did a coup, i would joke, right, i'll get a 2 or a 3 and he'd get a 5, and it happened, i understand that's how random numbers work, but why have a true random system in place? Why not have every dice roll want to be high (At the moment space race wants to be low) and give every player a dice deck, so you get an even number of 6's? Why not have each player have a deck of values which they play (and runs out) meaning they can try to buff certain abilities or bluff their opponent into using a big card, this feels way more relevant to the Cold War, than both sides randomly rolling a dice. Why not even use something like my favourite cube tower from Shogun, you get a good roll this turn, but i know i have more influence ready for a later ability, so it will even out.

It's like playing the depth and interest of chess, but every time a piece tries to take another piece, you roll a dice, and the loser loses a piece. Really strange.

Un-fun Cards - The second thing we didn't like was the huge power of a small number of cards. Red Purge/Power (May have got the name wrong) was a hugely un-fun card for the both of us to play against (Fortunately we both drew it once). I can see games where one player draws it twice (or even 3 times) and the game swings on that one card.

Also, the Bear Trap was played on me at the start of one turn, we assumed that meant i just lose my turn until i can roll a high enough number. Really? And then the luck of who drew that card. My opponent drew both the US and the USSR version of that card, and obviously played the US on turn 1, and the USSR on the last turn of a round, meaning i got no benefit of the most powerful card, just on pure blind luck of who it was dealt to?

I assume i sound salty as i was hit by poor dice rolls, bad card draw but i actually managed to win the game in the final round by concentrating in Europe due to my opponent always rolling 6's in coups, so i gave up fighting anywhere else because it was so frustrating. Even then i won with a Glasnost & Europe Scoring in my last hand which allowed me to switch a number of battleground countries in the headline phase before my opponent could react and then scored for the win, perhaps he shouldn't have let me be 4 points away from victory, but even then to draw that combo was pretty lucky.

I'm sure i won't manage to convert the forum here to my way of thinking, and that is fine, we all enjoy different games, but we were both really surprised that the type of player who would like the intrigue and decisions (we we loved) wouldn't also hate the dice rolling?

Twas an interesting look into the mind of a TS player!

Mike.......
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Ben Kyo
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I initially hated the dice rolling, but after about 6 games I got over it (realized it isn't a problem).

"The mind of a TS player" might not be as different from yours as you think.

Oh, and at least one rule mistake: Bear Trap/Quagmire do carry over into the AR of the next Turn if you haven't rolled successfully yet. You need 1-4, not a "high number", and getting rid of opponent cards without needing to Space them can be a benefit.
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Mike West
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Benkyo wrote:
I initially hated the dice rolling, but after about 6 games I got over it (realized it isn't a problem).

"The mind of a TS player" might not be as different from yours as you think.

Oh, and at least one rule mistake: Bear Trap/Quagmire do carry over into the AR of the next Turn if you haven't rolled successfully yet. You need 1-4, not a "high number", and getting rid of opponent cards without needing to Space them can be a benefit.

I dunno, if i hate a mechanic, i find it rather tricky to play another 5 games .

I see, Bear Trap is even worse!

Yeah, i can see that Quagmire etc has 'some' good, but were we right in the affected player can't actually do anything. Basically 'Roll a double or miss a turn' from everyone's number 1 game, Monopoly?
 
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Kevin Conway
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Quote:
Random Dice Rolls - My goodness, for such a highly ranked game, how do all of you put up with the huge number of dice rolls that affect almost everything you do!

By not being just a Eurogamer.
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Grant Linneberg
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Quote:
Random Dice Rolls - My goodness, for such a highly ranked game, how do all of you put up with the huge number of dice rolls that affect almost everything you do!

With a huge number of rolls, luck evens out. The only time luck really wrecks things is if there's only a few rolls.
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J Mathews
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Gothnak wrote:
I dunno, if i hate a mechanic, i find it rather tricky to play another 5 games .

I see, Bear Trap is even worse!

Yeah, i can see that Quagmire etc has 'some' good, but were we right in the affected player can't actually do anything. Basically 'Roll a double or miss a turn' from everyone's number 1 game, Monopoly?
Being able to discard cards that you usually wouldn't be able to discard can be really good and pretty strategic. Also, my last game my opponent hit every coup roll at 5 or 6. I had middling coup luck and won by Turn 7. Managing where they can do coups with DEFCON is a big deal and can mitigate the dice luck. Essentially the entire game is an exercise in figuring out what to do with crappy situations. If that isn't of interest, it's not going to be a fun game for you.
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Mike West
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sushidog wrote:
Quote:
Random Dice Rolls - My goodness, for such a highly ranked game, how do all of you put up with the huge number of dice rolls that affect almost everything you do!

With a huge number of rolls, luck evens out. The only time luck really wrecks things is if there's only a few rolls.

In a single game it likely doesn't even out, ours certainly didn't, and i gave a number of examples of random elements or ways of resolving conflicts in other games that are so much better than TS.

Catan Dice Deck
Shogun cube tower
Game of Thrones/Dungeon Twister Combat deck

All have interesting random elements with a memory, i'm just surprised a game ranked so highly does this particular element so badly!

The theme, and decision making elements i totally get the fan base, but it seems everyone is happy to skim over this bit.
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Alex Drazen
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A good Twilight Struggle player will ask, "Do I bear trap/quagmire myself or send it to space?"

It gives the opponent double action rounds, but helps you mitigate a bad hand.

Also of note, do you event it or leave it in the deck?

There are plenty of interesting decisions. Besides if you play well you won't NEED to roll the dice that often. Influence placement and events should be 80% of what is happening, in my experience. And part of the game is when to press your luck vs. when to press your advantage.

But if that's not for you, that is possible. It does have a bit of a learning curve to get good.

Also the dice rolls are thematic. Coups and realignments were risky! They could fail. I actually think the one weakness is that a failed coup is just a wasted turn other than needing milops. An interesting variant might be "blowback" where the enemy got +1 for your failure.

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Mike West
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EventHorizon wrote:
Gothnak wrote:
I dunno, if i hate a mechanic, i find it rather tricky to play another 5 games .

I see, Bear Trap is even worse!

Yeah, i can see that Quagmire etc has 'some' good, but were we right in the affected player can't actually do anything. Basically 'Roll a double or miss a turn' from everyone's number 1 game, Monopoly?
Being able to discard cards that you usually wouldn't be able to discard can be really good and pretty strategic. Also, my last game my opponent hit every coup roll at 5 or 6. I had middling coup luck and won by Turn 7. Managing where they can do coups with DEFCON is a big deal and can mitigate the dice luck. Essentially the entire game is an exercise in figuring out what to do with crappy situations. If that isn't of interest, it's not going to be a fun game for you.

Crappy situations = interesting, the cards you draw allow that gameplay mechanic fantastically well often having to give your opponent something, i like it a lot.

I also dealt with the coups by the way i played as you say.

But when i try 6 space races in a row and can't roll a success, and my opponent gets 6/7, that isn't fun, or dealing with a crappy situation. How do i deal with it? 'Don't play any ability that requires a dice roll because i am unlucky today?' I can't mitigate a bad implementation of 'random'.

I do enjoy MTG, but omg, the fact you have to draw land and spells from the same deck, what a dreadful gameplay mechanic that allows mana screw and flood. I admit that one of my favourite games is badly flawed, that is all i'm saying in TS's case too. Sure, in 75% of games of MTG luck is mitigated, but it isn't always and when you drew 6 land in a row, it just plain sucks

But MTG was designed in 1994, you'd think if someone designed it with the knowledge of today, they'd solve that gameplay feature and that is what i am saying with TS is all. .
 
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Ben Kyo
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I'm not trying to convince you to like a game you don't, that would be pointless.

But the coup/war/space rolls are not a "problem" in need of fixing, they provide tension and variance that are a key part of its appeal for many.

There are very few games with dice that I enjoy. Twilight Struggle is one of the few.
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Brad Miller
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A handful of scoring cards early for the US is even worse than bad die rolling...
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Ronster Zero
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This is a highly rated, deep strategy, incredibly fun and complex game with tons of hard choices and random play each time.

No one says you have to like it.

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Kevin L
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I desperately wanted to like TS as I cut my teeth on wargames as a teenager, but had similar experiences and feelings to the OP both times I played TS. Midway through the second play, I looked at my opponent and said, "Are you having fun? Because I'm not." The opponent agreed and we packed it up unfinished. It's now in my "to trade" or PIFF pile. The weird part is that I really don't mind random elements -- for the last decade or so my favorite game is backgammon and Up Front remains one of my long-term gaming loves too. And direct player conflict is no problem either. But, for me, TS felt like an extended exercise in frustration -- the game seemed to reduce both players almost to impotence both times. How is that possible for both sides to feel unable to accomplish anything positive? I dunno, but that's what the experienced was for both of us, both times. In any case, it still makes me a bit sad to admit that TS wasn't enjoyable for me and simply wouldn't see table time ever again.
 
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To OP, coming from a gamer who loves TS and ranks it as my #1 game...

1. Poor rolls - I feel you on this one. The dice rolls are my least favorite part of the game. You can partially mitigate this with strategy and positioning (most of the War cards, for example, you can partially mitigate by controlling adjacent nations). But a string of bad coups, bad Space Race rolls, and bad Quagmire/Bear Trap rolls can really tank a playthrough.

A lot of people say that luck evens out over many games, and this is undoubtedly true. I enjoy this game enough to play it many, many times, so if I'm doomed from the start due to bad dice rolls, I can shrug and say "I'll have better luck next time". But psychologically sometimes there's no coming back from a bad QM/BT where you lost your entire turn and even your opponent is starting to feel really bad for you. (In my opinion, the QM/BT card would be more fun for me with a redesign allowing increased probability of escape with failed attempts and/or sacrifice of a high point card.)

2. Bad card draws - this is even more serious than the dice rolls, in my opinion, but it's usually less apparent. Still, the game has one great mechanic balancing out the loyalty of the cards (if Soviets draw a horrible hand full of US cards, then at least it's more likely that the US drew a load of Soviet cards too, because they were left in the deck to be drawn). But the biggest problem is points value - if you draw a hand of low points, then you've left mostly higher-value cards for your opponent to draw. I wish there was a way to balance this out, so if you draw weak cards, then your opponent is likely to have done similar. I've played several FFG games where they have detailed instructions for preparing the deck for draws in a certain way - I wonder if a similar deck-stacking/shuffling method could work as well. (Maybe separate decks for 1-2, 3, and 4 OPs, and each player chooses one pile allowing the other to choose from the like pile?)

Also, there are several cards (mostly mid-War neutral cards) which are game-changers. Red Scare/Purge, Indo-Pak War, Brush War, ABM Treaty, SALT Treaty, can all swing the game for whichever player draws them. Wargames can outright win the game (although it comes in the Late War and an experienced player can help prevent instant-loss by either keeping DEFCON high or playing the "Get X VP" cards for their VP rather than the OPs).

3. The game is one of the more complex ones that I play routinely, in that you have to juggle DEFCON, MilOps, board position, Space Race powers (or block your enemy from using theirs for too long), etc. I do think it's a challenge to teach and to learn, especially if you're playing with a player who is lopsidedly more experienced than you. It's helpful to have a more experienced player to make sure you understand the rules (especially DEFCON suicide, which is often the last rule people learn to get right), but the psychological effect of being constantly beaten down by a superior foe can be crushing.

4. The game was the first game ever designed by Gupta and Matthews, and there are a few artifacts of the card powers that apparently show a beta ruleset which was later simplified. Several US high-OPs cards assume that Europe, Japan, etc. will get couped a lot and realigned a lot, which is largely prevented by the base rules on release. There are a handful of cards which have powers either that always get used instead of OPs, or which never get used instead of OPs.

Personally, the reasons I like the game so much despite its abovementioned drawbacks, are:

1. The pressure of brinksmanship and disaster-aversion in the game are very well done. A lot of the game is crisis management so you don't lose to your own hand. When you're watching your enemy play around the board, part of the paranoia comes from not knowing if they're just trying to mitigate a bad hand, or if they've got some secret agenda that you have to respond to.

2. DEFCON suicide is fantastic in this game. The USSR especially has to be very careful about what to play and when, and whether to space a partially inconvenient card now or save the space release-valve for a truly horrible card later.

3. Although both the US and USSR use points in the same way, the design of the card powers give rise to an interesting partial asymmetry - the USSR is a powerhouse in the Early War, then things even out somewhat in the MidWar, and finally the US comes into its strength in the Late War.

4. The game actually counts as medium-duration in my list of games - although I can well appreciate that many gamers will consider it to be long-duration by common standards. If I do not consider the game's duration to be unreasonably long (compared to Star Wars Rebellion, Arkham Horror, Gloomhaven, 1989, and Labyrinth War on Terror) then I'm less likely to be completely done with the game if one or two games go really poorly for reasons beyond my control. (Although I still don't like it!)

In the end, if the game isn't for you, you don't owe anybody (not the designers, and certainly not some randos on a message board) any duty to force yourself to enjoy the game.

I personally got into it after reading a reddit thread by Tom Hanks' son, where they recommended the game to him because of his Cold War interest. I tried it out with my equally-clueless roommate, and really enjoyed it (even though we didn't get the rules right until maybe the 4th or 5th game). It does reward continued play and familiarity with deeper strategies, although there is a degree of dice and draft luck that no amount of skill can completely remove.
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Kolonel Kklinkk
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I'm totally with you on this one.
I thought the 1st game was ... a 1st game and it would get better. Unfortunately the more I played it, the less I liked it.
After 3 times I think I'm done with it.
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Seth Homa
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Random two cents addition to this thread - advancing too far too soon on the space track, particularly for the Soviets, can backfire. Spectacularly.
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Mike West
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YassWaddah wrote:
To OP, coming from a gamer who loves TS and ranks it as my #1 game...

1. Poor rolls - I feel you on this one. The dice rolls are my least favorite part of the game. You can partially mitigate this with strategy and positioning (most of the War cards, for example, you can partially mitigate by controlling adjacent nations). But a string of bad coups, bad Space Race rolls, and bad Quagmire/Bear Trap rolls can really tank a playthrough.

A lot of people say that luck evens out over many games, and this is undoubtedly true. I enjoy this game enough to play it many, many times, so if I'm doomed from the start due to bad dice rolls, I can shrug and say "I'll have better luck next time". But psychologically sometimes there's no coming back from a bad QM/BT where you lost your entire turn and even your opponent is starting to feel really bad for you. (In my opinion, the QM/BT card would be more fun for me with a redesign allowing increased probability of escape with failed attempts and/or sacrifice of a high point card.)

2. Bad card draws - this is even more serious than the dice rolls, in my opinion, but it's usually less apparent. Still, the game has one great mechanic balancing out the loyalty of the cards (if Soviets draw a horrible hand full of US cards, then at least it's more likely that the US drew a load of Soviet cards too, because they were left in the deck to be drawn). But the biggest problem is points value - if you draw a hand of low points, then you've left mostly higher-value cards for your opponent to draw. I wish there was a way to balance this out, so if you draw weak cards, then your opponent is likely to have done similar. I've played several FFG games where they have detailed instructions for preparing the deck for draws in a certain way - I wonder if a similar deck-stacking/shuffling method could work as well. (Maybe separate decks for 1-2, 3, and 4 OPs, and each player chooses one pile allowing the other to choose from the like pile?)

Also, there are several cards (mostly mid-War neutral cards) which are game-changers. Red Scare/Purge, Indo-Pak War, Brush War, ABM Treaty, SALT Treaty, can all swing the game for whichever player draws them. Wargames can outright win the game (although it comes in the Late War and an experienced player can help prevent instant-loss by either keeping DEFCON high or playing the "Get X VP" cards for their VP rather than the OPs).

3. The game is one of the more complex ones that I play routinely, in that you have to juggle DEFCON, MilOps, board position, Space Race powers (or block your enemy from using theirs for too long), etc. I do think it's a challenge to teach and to learn, especially if you're playing with a player who is lopsidedly more experienced than you. It's helpful to have a more experienced player to make sure you understand the rules (especially DEFCON suicide, which is often the last rule people learn to get right), but the psychological effect of being constantly beaten down by a superior foe can be crushing.

4. The game was the first game ever designed by Gupta and Matthews, and there are a few artifacts of the card powers that apparently show a beta ruleset which was later simplified. Several US high-OPs cards assume that Europe, Japan, etc. will get couped a lot and realigned a lot, which is largely prevented by the base rules on release. There are a handful of cards which have powers either that always get used instead of OPs, or which never get used instead of OPs.

Personally, the reasons I like the game so much despite its abovementioned drawbacks, are:

1. The pressure of brinksmanship and disaster-aversion in the game are very well done. A lot of the game is crisis management so you don't lose to your own hand. When you're watching your enemy play around the board, part of the paranoia comes from not knowing if they're just trying to mitigate a bad hand, or if they've got some secret agenda that you have to respond to.

2. DEFCON suicide is fantastic in this game. The USSR especially has to be very careful about what to play and when, and whether to space a partially inconvenient card now or save the space release-valve for a truly horrible card later.

3. Although both the US and USSR use points in the same way, the design of the card powers give rise to an interesting partial asymmetry - the USSR is a powerhouse in the Early War, then things even out somewhat in the MidWar, and finally the US comes into its strength in the Late War.

4. The game actually counts as medium-duration in my list of games - although I can well appreciate that many gamers will consider it to be long-duration by common standards. If I do not consider the game's duration to be unreasonably long (compared to Star Wars Rebellion, Arkham Horror, Gloomhaven, 1989, and Labyrinth War on Terror) then I'm less likely to be completely done with the game if one or two games go really poorly for reasons beyond my control. (Although I still don't like it!)

In the end, if the game isn't for you, you don't owe anybody (not the designers, and certainly not some randos on a message board) any duty to force yourself to enjoy the game.

I personally got into it after reading a reddit thread by Tom Hanks' son, where they recommended the game to him because of his Cold War interest. I tried it out with my equally-clueless roommate, and really enjoyed it (even though we didn't get the rules right until maybe the 4th or 5th game). It does reward continued play and familiarity with deeper strategies, although there is a degree of dice and draft luck that no amount of skill can completely remove.

Thanks for the balanced response, this is what i expected to see, 'the game has so many great elements, i don't mind the annoying random bits'. I guess i'm surprised someone hasn't switched all dice rolls to be 'high = good' and added a dice deck for each player, that would remove almost all our issues with it.

I'd probably also have removed/replaced 2-3 cards from the decks, Quagmire/Bear Trap, Red Scare/Purge being the obvious ones, things that just make the game 'no fun' for your opponent.

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Barry Miller
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First and foremost... many new players seem to believe that TS is a Eurogame. It is NOT.

Look, life IS random. That's why I WANT smart randomness in my games. I want my games to mimic life, to an extent. Every outcome in life is random, especially when it comes to conflict and experimentation. So TS is a game which captures that essence.

- Coups were never a guaranteed outcome. So how do you model that in a game? Well first, you have a better chance of success if you conduct a coup with a stronger hand (and I'm talking about real life, which perfectly segues into how the game plays). So if you have a good hand - especially a 3 OPs of a 4 OPs - you will have a better chance of succeeding. And the weaker the target country, again, a better chance of succeeding.

THAT's what this game models. It it implements that chance element with a die roll. Can you think of a better way?

- The Space Race was always hit or miss. NOTHING in our pursuit of making it to the Moon by 1969 was ever guaranteed! Every step was very much a chance. So how do you model THAT? Sure, there are more sophisticated ways than using a die roll, but those methods would create its own mini game which would detract from the purpose of the Space Race mechanic (to dump a bad card from your hand).


Finally... as with most pure strategy games, they're never intended to be played only once. TRUST me... if you play more sessions of TS, all those dice rolls which your opponent got will be yours one game!

In the end, this game really does come down to a matter of who's best at managing the cards they draw. The problem we see in today's boardgaming climate, is such a notion isn't always realized on a first play, and as such, turns many gamers off. I think that needing to be satisfied on a first play is a product of how this hobby has evolved, and not a statement on the players themselves. I think if TS was designed TODAY, it'd have to be an entirely different game.

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Anton Tolman
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Gothnak wrote:


I dunno, if i hate a mechanic, i find it rather tricky to play another 5 games .

I see, Bear Trap is even worse!

Yeah, i can see that Quagmire etc has 'some' good, but were we right in the affected player can't actually do anything. Basically 'Roll a double or miss a turn' from everyone's number 1 game, Monopoly?

My own experience, after many games, is that Quagmire/Bear Trap usually lasts 1-2 action rounds. It is very rare it goes on for may AR's.

I also don't understand your opponent playing both Bear Trap and Quagmire. No matter which side they are, one of those cards will benefit them, but the other one, played for event, will not. If you play it for Ops, it will go off, like shooting yourself in the foot. Better to either hold it or space it.

The more you get to know the cards and know what has been played and what is likely coming up (especially when the scoring cards have been out or not), the game gets better and better.
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Ben Kyo
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Gothnak wrote:
I guess i'm surprised someone hasn't switched all dice rolls to be 'high = good' and added a dice deck for each player
Based on this suggestion, I tried thinking of a dice deck that would work.

It would require a way to ensure that you could never be certain of the result, because certainty would be terrible, so I figure a deck of 1 to 6 and a reshuffle card would "work".

The problem, of course, would be all the shuffling. So much busywork for so little gain (or no gain, or negative gain, depending on your preferences).

I would be more surprised if anyone actually played with this variant.
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Barry Miller
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Benkyo wrote:
...so I figure a deck of 1 to 6 and a reshuffle card would "work".
Yeah, but the current dice roll probabilities (there is no luck, only probabilities ) are "baked" into the design. So for a deck of cards numbered 1 - 6 to work, the deck would have to be reshuffled after every draw.

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Ben Kyo
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bgm1961 wrote:

Benkyo wrote:
...so I figure a deck of 1 to 6 and a reshuffle card would "work".
Yeah, but the current dice roll probabilities (there is no luck, only probabilities ) are "baked" into the design. So for a deck of cards numbered 1 - 6 to work, the deck would have to be reshuffled after every draw.
Er, you do know what a variant is, right?
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Barry Miller
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Benkyo wrote:
Er, you do know what a variant is, right?
Are you wanting the variant to work without changing the intent of the game? Or not? To my mind, variants are fine as long as they offer a different way to satisfy the designed intent of the game.

Once you start messing around with the probabilities that Twilight Struggle is designed around, then you are in effect creating an entirely different game. At which point it's no longer a variant, but a spin off.

 
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Mike West
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bgm1961 wrote:

Benkyo wrote:
...so I figure a deck of 1 to 6 and a reshuffle card would "work".
Yeah, but the current dice roll probabilities (there is no luck, only probabilities ) are "baked" into the design. So for a deck of cards numbered 1 - 6 to work, the deck would have to be reshuffled after every draw.


I think you 'simply' revert all 'you want to roll low' rolls to 'you want to roll high' so for example, Space Race, you make it a 'roll 5-6' rather than '1-2' as 'most' of the time, you want to succeed, same with Quagmire etc.

Then you don't have a draw deck of 6 cards, you have a draw deck of 36 cards, with 1-6 6 times each. This means, every time you draw a 6 you are less likely to draw a 6 in future (same with a 1), it is still random (Random isn't the problem) but it has memory and fairness (This was our problem).

The other reason why this random deck would be more fun is that it could be built into the design of the game, and certain cards could add higher value rolls into your deck for example. I'd call it Twilight Struggle 2.

 
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dranton wrote:
Gothnak wrote:


I dunno, if i hate a mechanic, i find it rather tricky to play another 5 games .

I see, Bear Trap is even worse!

Yeah, i can see that Quagmire etc has 'some' good, but were we right in the affected player can't actually do anything. Basically 'Roll a double or miss a turn' from everyone's number 1 game, Monopoly?

My own experience, after many games, is that Quagmire/Bear Trap usually lasts 1-2 action rounds. It is very rare it goes on for may AR's.

I also don't understand your opponent playing both Bear Trap and Quagmire. No matter which side they are, one of those cards will benefit them, but the other one, played for event, will not. If you play it for Ops, it will go off, like shooting yourself in the foot. Better to either hold it or space it.

The more you get to know the cards and know what has been played and what is likely coming up (especially when the scoring cards have been out or not), the game gets better and better.

My opponent drew both, one he played on me at the start of a turn, the other he either discarded to space race, or had the event which allowed him to discard his hand. Either way, i never got to use it on him because he was lucky enough to draw it.
 
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