John Doe
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https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/294507-i-desi...


No wonder the balance is trash. Letting a 19 year old kid balance a game? TF?

Don't bother getting it.

Will purchase all other descent products. FFG has went downhill since asmodee bought them out.

I'll stick with chains hybrid classes.

I'd blame the kid but the real fault lies with ffg.
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Felipe
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Literally just bought it... 19 year old? Woah
 
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John Doe
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Reading on the forums some of the classes are game breakingly broken for the overlord player, some are weak. Theirs a general lack of professionalism on the cards text as well.
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Jeff C
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Amunra93 wrote:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/294507-i-desi...


No wonder the balance is trash. Letting a 19 year old kid balance a game? TF?

Don't bother getting it.

Will purchase all other descent products. FFG has went downhill since asmodee bought them out.

I'll stick with chains hybrid classes.

I'd blame the kid but the real fault lies with ffg.
I do not discount the issues with this expansion but it is disingenuous to imply that he was the sole designer. The credits has “Expansion Design and Development: Jim Cartwright and Nicolas Zhang with Nathan I. Hajek and Grace Holdinghaus”. In the post you link to he indicates that he created some of the initial designs but left FFG before things were finished.
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John Doe
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Says he designed 5 of the classes in the post.

Regardless, its clear this expansion was designed by people playing the app, not vwrsus a real overlord.

 
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Evan
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Yes, he "did the initial designs for those classes and worked on revisions, up to a point," and after two months Jim took over and did the actual testing and development, which is a far cry from "letting a 19 year old balance a game."

But that's beside the point. If you have problems with the expansion, by all means say what they are, but starting a thread to announce that one of the designers was too young to make a good game is just mean-spirited, bigoted, and petty.
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John Doe
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Quoting Charmy's post on ffgs forums:

I've had a good amount of play experience with Lost Legends now. After trying the classes as written I really wasn't happy with them.

There are a large number of problems with this expansion not present in content previously released for Descent that to me demonstrate a lack of play testing. They include:

- infinite attack loops (All-Knowing + Bottled Courage), and infinite healing loops (All-Knowing + Focused Insights + Soothing Insights)

- ability timing problems with no clarification or FAQ answers as of yet (e.g. Elementalist skills Tide and Blaze)

- cards like Divine Light and Galvanize not clarifying whether the hero tokens placed are removed between encounters or between quests

- poor mechanics for traditional game such as Soul Reaper losing all their essence and becoming a powerless healer when knocked out (a trivial task for a determined Overlord) and having no means to gain essence if no monsters perish. The Soul Reaper also appears to be balanced around the fact that in Lost Legends the monsters apply tons of conditions thanks to various activation bonuses. This gives the Soul Reaper lots of essence fuel via the Mirror of Souls and Blight Extraction. This is all well and good in Lost Legends, but the Soul Reaper is completely starved vs. an Overlord with brains who can simply employ tactics that don't involve conditions.

- many cards missing the "even while this card is exhausted" test, when it should be present

- cards with broken power level compared with other effects in the game, such as Righteous, which gives an extremely powerful effect typically reserved for Act 2 weapons, relics or heroic abilities and affecting the entire party with infinite range and no activation cost, or Grasp + Nature's Embrace allowing the Elementalist to stun entire monster groups without an action or test.

- cards which should have a numerical cap on their effect to having no cap (such as rugal's example of using Whirlwind in combination with Momentum to move an absurd numbers of spaces, and Vicious Throw allowing a character to throw Melee weapons with a ridiculous +8 range, out classing even the most powerful magical bows and dedicated marksmen)

- cards which should have a range limit on their effect not having a range limit (e.g. Death from Above allowing a hero an unprecedented ability to teleport an infinite number of squares and perform an attack)

- abilities not being tested in general for quest interactions, such as Gust and Storm's Fury allowing you to move any figure, not just monsters and hero figures, thus allowing the Elementalist to reposition quest NPCs to make encounters impossible for the Overlord or trivial for the heroes (e.g. moving the non-monster figure Tyrus around in Blood and Betrayal Encounter 2A so that he may never escape the map)

The power level in general is just all over the place (including the previously mentioned Now You See Me) and in my opinion the designer who created these classes doesn't play a lot against human Overlords. This to me is evident by many of the design choices, such as the ability for the Elementalist to reposition monsters via the aforementioned Gust and Storm's Fury when compared with the closest equivalent skills of Vortex and Gravity Spike which require dedicated actions to use, high fatigue cost, limit of 2 spaces, pre-placed images/stones, and restrictions as to how the figures can be repositioned.
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Guido Hansen
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I agree with the points that Charmy, Rugal and other experienced Descent players have identified. However, I think that the general ideas and concepts of most of the new hybrid classes are interesting and fun to play. It is not the design itself that is problematic here. Actually, Alicitorte did a pretty good job.

It is FFG's fault to not rigorously play-test and double-check all the cards. That was their responsibility. The other option would have been to reach out to the community. To my knowledge that did not happen. In fact, many of the typos, inconsistencies and problematic mechanisms have been identified and discussed by knowledgeable members of the community within 48 h after release of LL.
Recently, Charmy even released a community patch that deals with all of the problems identified
.

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Nick
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Amunra93 wrote:
... Theirs a general lack of professionalism on the cards text as well.
Is this a sarcastic joke?
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Allan A.Y.
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Perhaps slow down a bit and re-evaluate if judging him based on his job title and age is appropriate.

Full disclosure: I bought it to solely send a message that descent is still going strong, but I don't feel buyer's remorse over a 10 bucks print on demand expansion.
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Robert
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Personally, Descent has enough variety class and monster wise, I’m old school D&D and would love to see physical adventure “modules” released before they put this title to bed.
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Guido Hansen
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thebobymon wrote:
Personally, Descent has enough variety class and monster wise, I’m old school D&D and would love to see physical adventure “modules” released before they put this title to bed.
FFG confirmed that there will be no more physical content for Descent 2nd edition.
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Robert
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Yes I know I was just stating something I would have liked to see is all. Even print on demand would work for new stuff, but on to the next chapter I guess.
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John Doe
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RockCartel wrote:
Amunra93 wrote:
... Theirs a general lack of professionalism on the cards text as well.
Is this a sarcastic joke?


Nope, just a late night typo. Sarcasm is a form of veiled negativity. In any case I want to clarify that the issue isn't the 19 year old kid, its the lack of basic proofreading and thorough playtesting on ffg's part.
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Guido Hansen
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Amunra93 wrote:
Nope, just a late night typo. Sarcasm is a form of veiled negativity.
Your opening post could be interpreted as a form of unveiled negativity.

Amunra93 wrote:
In any case I want to clarify that the issue isn't the 19 year old kid, its the lack of basic proofreading and thorough playtesting on ffg's part.
I guess not too many people do get that intention when reading the title of the thread.
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Peter Brooks
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I don't think someone being 19 or an intern precludes someone from doing work of an acceptable or even high quality level. It certainly doesn't automatically make something trash.
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Charmy 004
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I personally wouldn't attack Alicorte's work because of his age or because he's an intern. As others have stated, that doesn't preclude someone from doing good quality work.

I would also agree with Sadgit that the problems aren't with the core design and concepts for the expansion classes. They are generally fine with a few exceptions (e.g. I had a problem with a skill being called simply "Righteous" to the point where I renamed it "Righteous Aura" in the patch card).

He was also likely working with some serious limitations such as not being allowed to introduce a class that required any new tokens of any kind, no familiars, etc. to cut down on production costs.

The problem lies in that FFG didn't put the playtesting and quality standards we've come to expect behind this product. I don't know if this is because of the Asmodee acquisition, but as stated before, it seems likely by the oversights in the content that they simply didn't playtest much in traditional campaigns vs. a competitive Overlord.

Even if one can argue for the great popularity of Road to Legend, that can't turn out well given the delicate balance of traditional Descent. Ideally a playtest team should have run through every regular quest of all of their past content at least once with mixed parties of these classes to ensure full compatibility and quality.

The various rules errors they made when playing the expansion on their live stream also suggests that the people working on the expansion weren't even intimately familiar with the game mechanics and recent rulings.

Thankfully, the Descent community has always been fantastic. I still use Sadgit's brilliant CRRG, Zaltyre's excellent rules advice and suggestions, Atom4AgeVampire's sweet Campaign Tracker, redjak's variants, etc. on a regular basis. Work from people in the community have kept the game alive at my table and with a bit of elbow grease and advice from helpful folks like rugal, I've managed to make Lost Legends into something my group can enjoy. It really just needed some TLC
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Personally, I felt the CtR classes were weak. I like Watchmen because I believe it's the only one that puts a new twist rather than a different lens. When my friend played Quellen as Berserker, by the end of the campaign he was just as strong as Mordrog or One-fist coulda been with the same XP. Most of the XP investments were just to play catch-up with the normal archetypes (ie. You can equip armor and runes, here's some extra HP, etc).

Being 19 means nothing, and I feel like when you go to make a class your main first objective is to get the feel right. Usually, you're trying so hard on the feel, that the balance is usually off. It just seems like they never playtest enough to dial the balance back. Like others have said, mechanically, at their core, the classes are sound. It's a word there or a number there that ruins them.

Let's also not act like FFG is the paragon of balance. There are overpowered things from licensed products, and there are classes that lack like Geomancer.

Overall, it's not trash. If you feel it's too strong just don't abuse it. If you wanna run Eleme talist and 3 broken hybrid/character combos on Normal that's completely your prerogative. If you feel Zealous Smite should be exhausted, don't use it twice in a turn.
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Wow, this title is super rude.
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PretzelTwist wrote:
Wow, this title is super rude.
Yes, the title and the original post sound troll-like.

Personally I really enjoy this expansion. I got the first printing of 2nd edition and remember the amount of errata there was to the text on the cards, these are not worse or better than any other Descent products. The classes are fun and interesting and allow for all the possible combinations which gives incredible freedom to the player. As for the balance - the game was never good with that and the expansion again is no better nor worse.
 
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