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Subject: Dominion 2019 Errata and Rules Tweaks rss

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Donald X.
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I am changing some rules and errata-ing some cards. And this post is telling you all about it.

The reasons behind these changes are:
- It's possible for two copies of a card to have different abilities. This causes problems, the worst (extremely exotic) situation being, you play a card and don't actually know what it should do. The cards that do this are also confusing in general.
- There are cases where card interactions fail in an unintuitive way, due to it mattering if cards in a discard pile are covered up.
- Two minor rules clarify things a little and simplify texts a little, and are just coming along for the ride.

These changes will be implemented in the online program soon, and are effective now. Of course if you are playing irl you may not know about them, or may choose to do whatever you choose to do. These are changes for the better though, and I recommend using them.

Edit: I didn't think those words through and should clarify. New printings of the sets will have the new wordings, just as with Possession and Masquerade earlier. Online we will have the new wordings soon, because we can. But obviously anyone with a physical copy has whatever version they have; there's no obligation to play with the errata, and it's not great having to tell your friends, "here's some text to remember about what this card actually does." You can do it if you want but it's not essential for good times. I'm telling people about the changes now instead of whenever the sets get reprinted, because we can have the changes online in the meantime.

1. Errata

Eight cards are getting errata. Four are "shapeshifters" - they can change what they are, or what something else is. These create lots of rules questions and a few problems, and are switching to be like Captain and Necromancer - they'll play a card instead of becoming the card. Three are one-shots that would behave differently with the shapeshifters; they're changing to be more like they previously were, though this will change how they work in some other situations (e.g. with Necromancer and Captain). And then Procession is getting rid of the tracking problem introduced when the Throne/Duration rule changed a few years ago.

Someday those expansions will get printed again, and will have the new wordings, with FAQs to go with them. You can play with them right now though, through the magic of knowing about them.

New card texts:

Band of Misfits: Action, $5
Play an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.

Overlord: Action, 8D
Play an Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there.

Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

Lantern: Artifact
Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

Death Cart: Action - Looter, $4
You may trash this or an Action card from your hand, for +$5.
----------
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.

Pillage: Action - Attack, $5
Trash this. If you did, gain 2 Spoils, and each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals their hand and discards a card that you choose.

Embargo: Action, $2
+$2
Trash this. If you did, add an Embargo token to a Supply pile. (For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, they gain a Curse.)

Procession: Action, $4
You may play a non-Duration Action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects. For a Band of Misfits playing a Throne Room playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the turn the Duration card leaves play. For a Band of Misfits playing a card that can move itself from play, like Mining Village, the Mining Village can't move itself, so Band of Misfits doesn't leave play any earlier than normal. If a Band of Misfits plays multiple Duration cards (e.g., you used Throne Room on it), leave it out until the Clean-up of the last turn that one of them still had effects.

These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play: currently, Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance, Necromancer, and Captain.

3. The new lose-track rule, now stop-moving, and getting things from your discard pile

Sometimes, the game wants you to not move a card further. I used to call this lose-track, because it existed due to situations where you'd really lose track of the card. But mostly you know right where the card is, so now I am calling it the stop-moving rule. And it's changing too, as follows.

The stop-moving rule: An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now. If a card isn't where the effect would expect it to be, or has moved away from there and then back, it can't move the card. Played cards expect to be in play; they can't move themselves if they aren't. Gained cards are expected to be where they were gained to, even if this isn't the discard pile. Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards; cards on top of a deck can't be moved once covered up.

Additionally, when you are told to get a card from your discard pile, you can look through it to get the card. That's just implicit. You don't have to just look at the top couple of cards, you can look through the whole discard pile.

The main change here is that previously you'd lose track of something if it were covered up in your discard pile, and now you don't. So for example if you Replace an Estate into Skulk, previously you would lose track of the Skulk when you gained a Gold and covered it up, but now you won't, you will put the Skulk onto your deck.

4. You can gain non-Supply cards when called out.

When a card tells you to gain a non-Supply card by name, you can gain it from its pile, even though it's not in the Supply.

This is just letting me drop "from its pile" from those cards, which wasn't a great way to make it clear that you really get to gain them.

5. Costs don't go below $0.

The cost in $ of a card can't go below $0. The cost in [potion] of a card can't go below 0 [potion]; the cost in [debt] of a card can't go below 0 [debt].

This is something that cards like Bridge have said; now it's just a rule, and covers the potion and debt cases since people ask. What does Vineyard cost with a Highway in play? Same as without it - zero coins, one potion, and zero debt.

*** Update! ***

Did I say that was the errata? There is more errata.

As a result of posting the errata, people have talked about it in forums and things, and the ShuffleiT version has gotten worked on. And this has resulted in two more desired changes. Well I'm counting it as two. And well the cards still won't be printed for months at least, but the online version is changing soon, so here they are.

The first is, when you are told to get a card from your discard pile, if it's not on top, or the card is chosen, you can look through your discard pile to get the card. You don't get to look through your discard pile to take the top card (again unless you're choosing a card from your discard pile). This change is because, well the idea was to messing with when you could look in your discard pile was to fix some weird situations, not to add "look through your discard pile" to cards like Watchtower that never had it. In the rare situations where you gain a card and want to use Watchtower and the card is no longer on top, you get to look through your whole discard pile; when it's on top, just take the card like you used to.

The second is, further errata for four cards to prevent loops. You could do things like, play a Bridge and use Inheritance on Band of Misfits and then play Band of Misfits to play Estate to play Band of Misfits to play Estate and it's a loop. The fix here is a type on these cards, that they then don't work with. This affects very little other than getting rid of the loops; Courtier is better with these cards, and if you e.g. have an Adventures token on Band of Misfits and wanted to play Captain to play Band of Misfits (with a Bridge) to take advantage of that, well, now that doesn't work. This fix includes Overlord even though it wasn't part of the loops, just to be safe for the future and because it looks like the other cards and this seems less confusing. And hey it was already getting errata. To avoid "non-Victory non-Command" on Inheritance, I'm dropping non-Victory, which was just there for the old way Inheritance worked.

So:

Band of Misfits: Action - Command, $5
Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.

Overlord: Action - Command, 8D
Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there.

Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

Captain: Action - Duration - Command, $6
Now and at the start of your next turn: Play a non-Duration non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4, leaving it there.
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David Goldfarb
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This has an effect on the interaction of Overlord (e.g.) and Imp or Conclave: previously, if I had played an Overlord, the played Overlord would temporarily not be an Overlord, so Imp could play another one.

Does the "...leaving it there" override the instruction that would move a Reserve card onto your Tavern mat? Previously, if you played an Overlord as a Reserve card, it would go onto your Tavern mat and then be stuck there. Seems like in the new world, playing the Reserve card would in fact put the played card onto your mat, so that you effectively gain it for free.
 
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Michael Brandt
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David Goldfarb wrote:
Does the "...leaving it there" override the instruction that would move a Reserve card onto your Tavern mat? Previously, if you played an Overlord as a Reserve card, it would go onto your Tavern mat and then be stuck there. Seems like in the new world, playing the Reserve card would in fact put the played card onto your mat, so that you effectively gain it for free.

I think you do not “effectively gain” the Reserve card for free, since the effect on a Reserve card expects to find the card in play:


donaldx wrote:
The stop-moving rule: An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now. If a card isn't where the effect would expect it to be, it can't move the card. Played cards expect to be in play; they can't move themselves if they aren't. Gained cards are expected to be where they were gained to, even if this isn't the discard pile. Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards; cards on top of a deck can't be moved once covered up.
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Donald X.
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michaeljb wrote:
I think you do not “effectively gain” the Reserve card for free, since the effect on a Reserve card expects to find the card in play:
Correct.

Possibly I shouldn't have switched to calling it "stop moving," since talking about where an effect expects to find a card sounds more like "lose track."
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David Goldfarb
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Okay, that makes sense: the Reserve card effect expects to be putting the card onto the mat from in play, and since the card isn't in play then the effect fails. Similarly cards like Embargo or Death Cart (or Feast, if you're still playing with Feast) try to move themselves from in play to the Trash and fail to do that.

I will say that once all this is in actual publication on paper cards, the rulebook had better have really clear explanations with concrete, worked-through examples, or newbies aren't going to grasp this. Even then, I expect it to be a source of BGG forum questions.
 
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Donald X.
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David Goldfarb wrote:
I will say that once all this is in actual publication on paper cards, the rulebook had better have really clear explanations with concrete, worked-through examples, or newbies aren't going to grasp this. Even then, I expect it to be a source of BGG forum questions.
No-one could grasp the previous Band of Misfits; it is a top source of rules questions. I am confident the new one will at least generate fewer rules questions. But sure, I'll do my best on the FAQ.
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Oskar 10101
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Donald, is it possible to include the old text above the new text for easy reference ? I know the information is available online and easy to find but having it in the same post makes it a lot easier for reference purposes. Also as sites and the application get updated with the new text it may become less easy to find the old text so could be a bit confusing. So having old and new text in one place together is then also easier for reference purposes.

Do you have any idea to what extent these changes apply to cards in other languages ? Or is some of this already covered by the translated cards (or made worse for that matter) ?

Good idea to post this upfront. Always a bit noisy when someone asks a question about a card and turns out there are multiple versions of the text but this was not known yet.
 
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Thomas Brendel
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Comparisons:

Band of Misfits: Action, $5
Play an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.

[was: Play this as if it were a cheaper Action card in the Supply. This is that card until it leaves play.]


Overlord: Action, 8D
Play an Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there.

[was: Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing up to $5. This is that card until it leaves play.]


Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

[parenthetical was: (Your Estates gain the abilities and types of that card.)]


Lantern: Artifact
Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

[was: Your Border guards reveal...]


Death Cart: Action - Looter, $4
You may trash this or an Action card from your hand, for +$5.
----------
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.

[above-the-line was: +$5. You may trash an Action card from your hand. If you don't, trash this.]


Pillage: Action - Attack, $5
Trash this. If you did, gain 2 Spoils, and each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals their hand and discards a card that you choose.

[was: Trash this. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals their hand and discards a card that you choose. Gain 2 Spoils from the Spoils pile.]


Embargo: Action, $2
+$2
Trash this. If you did, add an Embargo token to a Supply pile. (For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, they gain a Curse.)

[was: same, without "if you did"]


Procession: Action, $4
You may play a non-Duration Action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

[was: same, without "non-Duration"]

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Conan Meriadoc
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Squidd wrote:
Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

[parenthetical was: (Your Estates gain the abilities and types of that card.)]
Since the Estate doesn't gain the "Reaction" type in the new version, I suppose it's not possible anymore to use e.g. an estate as a moat in reaction to an attack ?

Edit : duh. "During your turns" precludes the above case anyway. But there are reactions that can trigger on your turn, such as Market Square.
 
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Donald X.
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Dystopian wrote:
Since the Estate doesn't gain the "Reaction" type in the new version, I suppose it's not possible anymore to use e.g. an estate as a moat in reaction to an attack ?

Edit : duh. "During your turns" precludes the above case anyway. But there are reactions that can trigger on your turn, such as Market Square.
All Inheritance does now is play the card; the below-the-line text of Market Square or any other card isn't part of playing the card, so it doesn't happen.
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Donald X.
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OP updated as follows.

*** Update! ***

Did I say that was the errata? There is more errata.

As a result of posting the errata, people have talked about it in forums and things, and the ShuffleiT version has gotten worked on. And this has resulted in two more desired changes. Well I'm counting it as two. And well the cards still won't be printed for months at least, but the online version is changing soon, so here they are.

The first is, when you are told to get a card from your discard pile, if it's not on top, or the card is chosen, you can look through your discard pile to get the card. You don't get to look through your discard pile to take the top card (again unless you're choosing a card from your discard pile). This change is because, well the idea to messing with when you could look in your discard pile was to fix some weird situations, not to add "look through your discard pile" to cards like Watchtower that never had it. In the rare situations where you gain a card and want to use Watchtower and the card is no longer on top, you get to look through your whole discard pile; when it's on top, just take the card like you used to.

The second is, further errata for four cards to prevent loops. You could do things like, play a Bridge and use Inheritance on Band of Misfits and then play Band of Misfits to play Estate to play Band of Misfits to play Estate and it's a loop. The fix here is a type on these cards, that they then don't work with. This affects very little other than getting rid of the loops; Courtier is better with these cards, and if you e.g. have an Adventures token on Band of Misfits and wanted to play Captain to play Band of Misfits (with a Bridge) to take advantage of that, well, now that doesn't work. This fix includes Overlord even though it wasn't part of the loops, just to be safe for the future and because it looks like the other cards and this seems less confusing. And hey it was already getting errata. To avoid "non-Victory non-Command" on Inheritance, I'm dropping non-Victory, which was just there for the old way Inheritance worked.

So:

Band of Misfits: Action - Command, $5
Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.

Overlord: Action - Command, 8D
Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there.

Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

Captain: Action - Duration - Command, $6
Now and at the start of your next turn: Play a non-Duration non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4, leaving it there.
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Chris Schumann
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Should Prince have the Command type now?
 
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Donald X.
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Whizkid wrote:
Should Prince have the Command type now?
The one most people ask about is Necromancer.

The idea was to fix the loops with the minimum possible other changes. There are loud voices on the internet that don't like it when a card interaction goes away. Necromancer has no potential loop problems (it limits itself by turning over cards in the trash), and giving it the Command type would actually stop non-exotic functionality (you couldn't play Band of Misfits to play Necromancer, which you totally might want to do with no further combo in mind). So I didn't change it.

Prince does play a card from outside the supply. It has no potential for loops though. Scepter has potential for loops; I could make a card that looked reasonable but was a loop with it. I didn't errata it either because so far I don't have to. Overlord meanwhile has no loops but I changed it anyway, because it didn't cost anything (the beneficial interactions it loses are exotic).

When the sets actually get reprinted I can reconsider the cases that didn't matter. The point to the errata coming out now instead of when the sets are reprinted was due to new people making a Dominion app, and me not wanting them to have to program versions of Band of Misfits etc. that wouldn't actually be used. They had to get the changes now, and then they might as well go live on the existing online Dominion program. So here they are. If you play irl odds are you will just use your printed cards, though you can use the errata if you want. If I add Command to another card later, that will be an easy change for the people making both programs.
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Matt E
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Prince puts the card into play.
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donaldx wrote:
The point to the errata coming out now instead of when the sets are reprinted was due to new people making a Dominion app

Is this a competitor, or a companion to ShuffleIT (or a replacement as ShuffleIT was itself)?
 
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Michael Brandt
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darthnice wrote:
donaldx wrote:
The point to the errata coming out now instead of when the sets are reprinted was due to new people making a Dominion app

Is this a competitor, or a companion to ShuffleIT (or a replacement as ShuffleIT was itself)?

Companion. Source on forum.dominionstrategy.com:

donaldx wrote:
The reason the errata went up when it did, instead of when at least one of those cards got a new printing, is because someone is making another online Dominion program (a downloadable app for phones and computers, that will exist simultaneously with the current web-based program; they have not announced it and that's up to them, and I don't know when it will come out or anything, but it can't possibly come out before January as their contract starts then). I didn't want them to have to program the other versions of Band of Misfits etc. ever. I don't know if I was fast enough there but I did what I could.
 
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donaldx wrote:
Embargo: Action, $2
+$2
Trash this. If you did, add an Embargo token to a Supply pile. (For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, they gain a Curse.)
I really hope the omission of "per Embargo token there" (from where it was apparently intended to be: at the end of the card text) was purposeful this time! It always seemed silly to me, that I could buy a card and get two Curses for it, especially when Embargo, the way it's worded at present, says I gain only one Curse (even if two Embargo tokens are on it).

Nevertheless, if you really do mean for two Embargo tokens to imply the gaining of two Curses, why not take this opportunity to add the missing wording, if you're changing the text anyway?

Personally I prefer Embargo's presence to diversify the spread of the tokens, such that more than ten Embargo tokens can go out into the Supply, and more than one on a particular pile has no additional impact.
donaldx wrote:
Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")
Not gonna lie, I'll miss the way the old version of Inheritance OP'ed Courtier. It was a synergy I enjoyed exploiting.

Also interesting to note how drastically this new wording changes the times where the Inherited Estates could potentially trash themselves, originally without contradiction or complication, but now the Inherited Action could say to trash itself while Inheritance itself says, simultaneously, to leave it there.
 
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donaldx wrote:
Band of Misfits: Action, $5
Play an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.
donaldx wrote:
2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects.
Originally, playing Band of Misfits as a Duration card wasn't usually complicated. But the new version obfuscates situations where the Duration card might not be in the Supply anymore, on the player's next turn(s). Are we to assume that Band of Misfits functions the way it used to, in such situations, even with the new wording? (It was just more clear before.)
 
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Donald X.
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SureCommaNot wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Embargo: Action, $2
+$2
Trash this. If you did, add an Embargo token to a Supply pile. (For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from that pile, they gain a Curse.)
I really hope the omission of "per Embargo token there" (from where it was apparently intended to be: at the end of the card text) was purposeful this time! It always seemed silly to me, that I could buy a card and get two Curses for it, especially when Embargo, the way it's worded at present, says I gain only one Curse (even if two Embargo tokens are on it).

Nevertheless, if you really do mean for two Embargo tokens to imply the gaining of two Curses, why not take this opportunity to add the missing wording, if you're changing the text anyway?

Personally I prefer Embargo's presence to diversify the spread of the tokens, such that more than ten Embargo tokens can go out into the Supply, and more than one on a particular pile has no additional impact.
The parenthetical is just explaining what Embargo tokens mean; they are still cumulative. I don't think "per token" is a better wording; to me that sounds like two tokens makes four Curses.
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Donald X.
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SureCommaNot wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Band of Misfits: Action, $5
Play an Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there.
donaldx wrote:
2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters

Some cards, like the new Band of Misfits, can play a card that isn't put into play. When you play Band of Misfits, leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play. Normally that will be the same turn's Clean-up. For a Band of Misfits playing a Duration card, it will be the Clean-up of the last turn the Duration card has any effects.
Originally, playing Band of Misfits as a Duration card wasn't usually complicated. But the new version obfuscates situations where the Duration card might not be in the Supply anymore, on the player's next turn(s). Are we to assume that Band of Misfits functions the way it used to, in such situations, even with the new wording? (It was just more clear before.)
I don't think there's any risk of the new Band of Misfits being less clear than the old one (which was a huge source of rules questions). I could have made it simpler by saying non-Duration on it; there were people who didn't want that to happen, and I felt like I could avoid it. Yes when you Band of Misfits a Duration card, Band of Misfits stays out the same length of time whether or not something happens to the Duration card in the pile in the meantime.
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David desJardins
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donaldx wrote:
The parenthetical is just explaining what Embargo tokens mean; they are still cumulative. I don't think "per token" is a better wording; to me that sounds like two tokens makes four Curses.

Also, why would the rules have you put a second Embargo token on a pile that already has one, if the second one had no effect?
 
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I hope Rio Grande Games will print an Update Pack for the errata cards.
Please. cry
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Paul Birnbaum

New Jersey
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donaldx wrote:
Dystopian wrote:
Since the Estate doesn't gain the "Reaction" type in the new version, I suppose it's not possible anymore to use e.g. an estate as a moat in reaction to an attack ?

Edit : duh. "During your turns" precludes the above case anyway. But there are reactions that can trigger on your turn, such as Market Square.
All Inheritance does now is play the card; the below-the-line text of Market Square or any other card isn't part of playing the card, so it doesn't happen.

Losing the below-the-line/reaction/not-your-turn effects of Inheritance upsets me no end. For one, it super-inflates the cost as compared to the effect(s). For the rest...are too numerous to mention, but they're all lost, too.

Sigh.
 
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Matt E
United States
Minnesota
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bulova wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Dystopian wrote:
Since the Estate doesn't gain the "Reaction" type in the new version, I suppose it's not possible anymore to use e.g. an estate as a moat in reaction to an attack ?

Edit : duh. "During your turns" precludes the above case anyway. But there are reactions that can trigger on your turn, such as Market Square.
All Inheritance does now is play the card; the below-the-line text of Market Square or any other card isn't part of playing the card, so it doesn't happen.

Losing the below-the-line/reaction/not-your-turn effects of Inheritance upsets me no end. For one, it super-inflates the cost as compared to the effect(s). For the rest...are too numerous to mention, but they're all lost, too.

Sigh.

I still think it should cost $7, but I agree it’s sad to lose the effects. I plan to keep playing with the old version.
 
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Chris E
United States
Ohio
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LastFootnote wrote:

I still think it should cost $7, but I agree it’s sad to lose the effects. I plan to keep playing with the old version.

That's our plan as well. Unless somebody ships out updated cards, we play with them as printed.
 
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