Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Madeira» Forums » General

Subject: How heavy is Madeira compared to the Vital Lacerda games? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bas Arts
Netherlands
Helmond
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmb
I have played some games of Vital Lacerda like Lisboa and Gallerist. Those are pretty heavy games. How heavy is Madeira if you compare it to the games mentioned above?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marco Herreras
Spain
flag msg tools
badge
NO QUEDAN PINGÜINOZ
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
basarts wrote:
I have played some games of Vital Lacerda like Lisboa and Gallerist. Those are pretty heavy games. How heavy is Madeira if you compare it tho the games mentioned above?
I have no experience on Lacerda's nor on Madeira, yet my gut impression was pretty similar when looking at the game setup aspect in both campaigns (On Mars and Madeira)...
I've often heard Mr. Lacerda's games feature an incredible level of integration of theme in mechanics... curious to hear expressions in that sense as regards Madeira...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Charlton
United Kingdom
East Barnet
Hertfordshire
flag msg tools
badge
www.finchleygamesclub.org
Avatar
mbmbmb
I'd say it's on a par with The Gallerist, i.e. a little lighter than Lisboa.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Govind Krishna
Japan
Setagaya
Tokyo
flag msg tools
When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
badge
Ouuu...my eye...Whatever you seek, you shan’t find it by pawing me!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
basarts wrote:
I have played some games of Vital Lacerda like Lisboa and Gallerist. Those are pretty heavy games. How heavy is Madeira if you compare it tho the games mentioned above?
I have few of WYG & Vital's games in my collection. And have played all of them multiple times and would definitely say they have no similarities, other than making your brains ooze out of your ears. They make you feel different, they play different and they offer completely different challenges. What you could call similar are the optimization puzzle (for lack of a better term), dealing with ever changing board state due to game's input randomness by the opponents and in some way the game that's constantly moving towards an end.

The way I see it is, Vital's games are an experience along with a terrific interconnected gameplay with just stunning production that makes you immerse into the game and he designs it with theme as a pivot that drives the gameplay mechanisms around it. Since you have played it, I am sure you already know without me elaborating it.

Not sure how to compare it directly to Vital's game's weight. It's quite subjective. I find Gallerist heavier than Lisboa, BGG and few other disagree. Madeira is heavy in its own way. But not untameable like people make it out to be.
WYG games in general and here Madeira for instance doesn't boast a production or artwork that EGG has but the gameplay is equally terrific.
It's so well developed that all the fat is neatly trimmed out and you have this beautiful, elegant core puzzle that challenges you with boldness every single time. No extra small finicky rules, no added layer of fluff - pure gameplay experience that makes me wanting more. Nuno & Paulo are known to flush their games to the last moment.
16 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Dorward
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
They are very different games, so I'm not sure "heavy" is measuring the same thing. I think the only thing in common is that the designers are Portuguese, and the games involve a very limited number of actions (you will only place 3 or 4 dice per round, and there are 5 rounds).

Madeira has more links to old-school worker placement games--there's a fight for dice placement spots, a fight for the 3 bonus "pirate" dice, a fight for turn order, a fight for shipping ports, and you gotta feed your workers. -- It also has a higher level of randomness and luck-mitigation than Lacerda games: you need to lay away bread to modify low dice. -- It also is akin to a game like Brass in that going into debt is obligatory: if you try to pay your way in Madeira you'll never get your engine going, so you must take some "pirates" (debt markers), and figure out how to ditch them later on.

It has much tighter use of combos than Lacerda games: guild tiles, unlike Lisboa's clergy tiles, are much more restricted in use (only one per turn, at the start of the turn, and they are hard to reactivate).

In general Madeira is more punishing if your plans go wrong--in Lacerda games it's typically possible and desirable to exchange the various currencies at favourable rates (e.g. using the money/fame marks on the influence track in The Gallerist, or trading influence for money or wigs for influence in Lisboa). In Madeira you can (and will) do this, but it is at a steep cost--the costs of buying wood escalate rapidly, taking bread or money from the windmill permanently hurts your ability to feed workers, etc.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Nelson
United States
Grand Rapids
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
basarts wrote:
I have played some games of Vital Lacerda like Lisboa and Gallerist. Those are pretty heavy games. How heavy is Madeira if you compare it tho the games mentioned above?

Madeira is one of my all-time favorite games, as is Vinhos. But I've had some issues with some of Vital's other games. For me, the biggest difference is that the "weight" of a lot of Vital's games comes from rule complexity and not from gameplay. Madeira has relatively simple rules but requires a lot of planning and tactical awareness. It also requires you to watch what other players are doing and either anticipate how they might screw you or make a plan to screw them. To me, these types of decisions make Madeira a heavier game than any of Vital's.

I should also mention that Vinhos was originally a WYG? game, so that title in particular shares a lot of what WYG? games are known for.
16 
 Thumb up
5.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thorsten Bahr
Germany
Augsburg (near Munich)
Bavaria
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
nicknelson wrote:
basarts wrote:
I have played some games of Vital Lacerda like Lisboa and Gallerist. Those are pretty heavy games. How heavy is Madeira if you compare it tho the games mentioned above?

Madeira is one of my all-time favorite games, as is Vinhos. But I've had some issues with some of Vital's other games. For me, the biggest difference is that the "weight" of a lot of Vital's games comes from rule complexity and not from gameplay. Madeira has relatively simple rules but requires a lot of planning and tactical awareness. It also requires you to watch what other players are doing and either anticipate how they might screw you or make a plan to screw them. To me, these types of decisions make Madeira a heavier game than any of Vital's.

I should also mention that Vinhos was originally a WYG? game, so that title in particular shares a lot of what WYG? games are known for.

NIck, I couldn't agree more on ALL accounts.

I have played all Lascerda games several times, both on the board and on Tabletopia (except Escape plan which I played only as a prototype), and - apart from Vinhos - ALWAYS have to take out the rule book again after not having played them for several months.

Madeira: once I understood the rules and really knew what I was doing (which took me until the third game) I have never forgotten them
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Keusch
United States
Ann Arbor
MI
flag msg tools
badge
Waves broke in swift lines on the beach, and she walked over the sand toward her friends, in the wind, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nicknelson wrote:
basarts wrote:
I have played some games of Vital Lacerda like Lisboa and Gallerist. Those are pretty heavy games. How heavy is Madeira if you compare it tho the games mentioned above?

Madeira is one of my all-time favorite games, as is Vinhos. But I've had some issues with some of Vital's other games. For me, the biggest difference is that the "weight" of a lot of Vital's games comes from rule complexity and not from gameplay. Madeira has relatively simple rules but requires a lot of planning and tactical awareness. It also requires you to watch what other players are doing and either anticipate how they might screw you or make a plan to screw them. To me, these types of decisions make Madeira a heavier game than any of Vital's.

I should also mention that Vinhos was originally a WYG? game, so that title in particular shares a lot of what WYG? games are known for.

This is perfect
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Roitzsch
Germany
Kiel
Schleswig-Holstein
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
RandomGraham wrote:
I'd say it's on a par with The Gallerist, i.e. a little lighter than Lisboa.
For me, Lisboa is lighter than Madeira and also The Gallerist.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan
Brazil
Interior de São Paulo
São Paulo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Every opinion in this thread is 100% right, even when they disagree about one or other opinion.

But there is a big chance that your most updated version of Madeira will last longer...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It’s one of my few top tens and a few reasons for that are: it’s tight and punishing, much more strategic than tactical and you’re rewarded for planning ahead, numerous routes to victory and varied end game/round objectives.

My biggest beef with Lacerda games is they feel a bit samey each time I play. Also, I don’t feel there are enough paths to victory and divergence with what you or your opponents want to do. I do want to try Lisboa but if the few that I’ve owned, they just didn’t work for me.

To answer the question, Of the ones ive played, its definitely heavier but not due to rules complexity. Its the strategy and planning that burn your brain
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil Triest
Australia
Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RandomGraham wrote:
I'd say it's on a par with The Gallerist, i.e. a little lighter than Lisboa.

The problem with comparing this with other games is some of the obtuseness within Madeira. It has been ages but I always found myself sinking rather than treading water trying to get what I wanted done in Madeira compared to The Gallerist and Kanban. I'd put it up there with Vinhos in that you feel as though you just don't get the time to complete what you'd like. The gathering of wood could be cumbersome in Madeira. Making the deliveries/hitting the targets at end of round in Madeira was intense a bit like the wine fair in Vinhos. I haven't played Lisboa but I suspect I'd found that easier to wrap my head around than playing Madeira. Taking pirates is another key element in Madeira as getting the most is very costly. Vital's titles are not really like Madeira bar maybe Vinhos...

I actually got rid of Madeira and am not actively seeking it out anymore. I feel like games like GWT, Kanban and Agra just do things more interestingly for me. That being said Vinhos has stayed in my collection as I'd rather play it than Madeira. My 5 cents anyway...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cory Yates
United States
Pekin
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rahdo said it well...Madeira is not complex, it’s just deep. Lots of interconnected decisions. I find Madeira extremely intuitive and easy to play and I’m not a heavy gamer. I would say this, there are some good strategy articles on here because they give you a lot of good basic advice. If you have these basics down, I think it makes the game more fun and less intimidating. For instance, I think the pirates thing gets brought up so much and so many other games punish you for not paying your debts early on that people think you should always pay your debt and never take pirates unless you have to but in Madeira it’s actually good to take pirates throughout the game to save valuable resources like bread you will need to modify dice or wood you will need to buy guild favors/place ships. You just have to know how to get rid pirates later using actions like going to the watch and so on. Or another thing that’s very basic is to make sure you always have access to wood. I see new players forgetting that a lot.

Madeira is a real gem. If you are on the fence, just give it a chance. It’s really not that intimidating if you just get a good teacher and know basic advice.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Perello
Canada
Salmo
British Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Want DnDeeples? I'm on Esty as MagnificentMeeples.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
yatescory wrote:
Rahdo said it well...Madeira is not complex, it’s just deep.
I completely agree with this. Before my first play I was quite intimidated because all I kept hearing from Podcasters and reviewers was how complex and brain melting the game was. Then I read the rules and thought, "Huh, that doesn't seem so bad, but maybe playing will complicate things..." It didn't. If anything after the first play I was already thinking of different strategies to try out, different ways of manipulating the different regions of the board.

Don't get me wrong, Madeira is far from simple, but grasping the rules and the basic fundamentals of how to play should not take more than an initial learning game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Dorward
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the rulebook is a little opaque (a lot of key information is presented all over the place), but I agree that the rules are not actually too complex, and the mechanics of the game are not fiddly. There is no upkeep/management between turns, largely because NOTHING is replenished or moved, aside from the infinite supply of wood in the middle of the board.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls