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Subject: Should I get this game? (It’s complicated) rss

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Simon Gosalvez
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My collection has about 150 games.

Honestly, my friends hear me more and more complaining about the fact that there are so many good games coming out every year and that we do not have time to play those we already have. For exemple, I loved Santa Maria so much that I blindly bought the expansion but I have it still in shrink because I haven’t played it since.

In fact, it does not completely prevent me from buying new games from time to time, but with every new game I buy, I can not help but think that I will play even less with those I already have.

With so many good games coming out every year, I also tend to think that some of those « classics » are gonna die eventually, well that was my recommandation for a friend that just got into board games: « Don’t go chase the classics ». So with that in mind, do you think I should get Madeira?

Lately we found out that we really like euros with lots of interactions (not necessarily mean), like Imhotep, Ishtar, Little Town and Calimala.

Some of my favorites:

Caverna
Ora & Labora
AFfO
Scythe
Black Angel
Teotihuacan
Nations
Lorenzo
Trajan
Everdell
Santa Maria
Concordia
Heaven & Ale
Gugong
Coimbra

Games tempting me right now:

Magnificent
Trismigistus
Terramara
Maracaibo
Cooper Island

Thanks for your help!
 
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David desJardins
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Maybe there should be a volunteer service where people can sign up for consultations on which games other people should buy based on a list of what they like and don't like.
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Kikaidurr
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Yes you should get it, though the kickstarter just finished
 
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Jason Diller
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I really like almost every game on your list, so I'll say that I picked up Madeira over the summer and finally got around to playing it a few weeks ago.

I enjoyed it very much, so much so that I pledged for the KS Collector's upgrade. However, I play most of my games with my brother these days and unfortunately, after a few plays he did not care for it. He's a great game buddy and we love deep games, but this one just didn't engage him.

So, sadly, I put my copy in the marketplace and cancelled the KS. I thought about keeping it around, but there are so many great games on my shelf I figure we should focus on playing the games we both like.

So, what I am saying is you should get it. It's pretty neat.
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蓝魔
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No, don't buy it. Any game where you feel you have to ask whether or not to buy it clearly is not a necessary purchase, especially when you already have a collection of 150 titles.

That being said Madeira is AMAZING !!
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David desJardins
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moocifer wrote:
Any game where you feel you have to ask whether or not to buy it clearly is not a necessary purchase, especially when you already have a collection of 150 titles.

Any game is never a necessary purchase.
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Nic

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Yes, you should get it. It's my one top ten game that I don't already own. Get it instead of Trismegistus: The Ultimate Formula and The Magnificent - those both look to be okay games, whereas Madeira is an amazing game.

ETA: Plus this one will hold its value much better than I think those other two will.
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Nick Nelson
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There have been several of these threads on here already, so I think you should look at those and see what people have said about the game to figure out if you think it's a fit for you.

That said, this quote struck me:

Bbchat wrote:
With so many good games coming out every year, I also tend to think that some of those « classics » are gonna die eventually, well that was my recommandation for a friend that just got into board games: « Don’t go chase the classics ». So with that in mind, do you think I should get Madeira?

I think the exact opposite is true. More and more, I'm finding that the classics are holding up great and that it's the new games that are disappointing. I'd recommend chasing the time-tested classics instead of always chasing the hotness. There's a reason why people move on so quickly from these new games. Games seem to be designed for 2-3 plays these days. It's really unfortunate.
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Phil Triest
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OP,I suspect Madeira will be too heavy for you. Work your way into Madeira. Maybe get Lacerda's newish game Escape Plan and see how that goes first. Have you taken a look at Flotilla?
 
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Scott Seifert
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Bull, Madeira is just a worker placement game. One with a dozen sub-steps but none, individually, complicated. Black Angel is harder to learn than it.
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Danny Perello
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If you can handle:
Ora & Labora
AFfO
Black Angel
Teotihuacan
Trajan
then Madeira should be no problem. All those games require you think several turns in advance, and Madeira is no different. Some may find it slightly heavier than those listed above, but they're all pretty close to the same weight.

I love all these games too, but Madeira slightly more...
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Phil Triest
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Relax wrote:
If you can handle:
Ora & Labora
AFfO
Black Angel
Teotihuacan
Trajan
then Madeira should be no problem. All those games require you think several turns in advance, and Madeira is no different. Some may find it slightly heavier than those listed above, but they're all pretty close to the same weight.

I love all these games too, but Madeira slightly more...

Madeira is heavier than all them mate. Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions. None of those games come close to that grind and weight of the unwieldiness this game presents. It is a big step up on all of these titles. OP, think Agricola only more grindy. Yes the pirates are in the game but knowing when and how to play them is something you learn after a while only.

I suggest you try before you pick up.
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Danny Perello
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philtrees wrote:
Relax wrote:
If you can handle:
Ora & Labora
AFfO
Black Angel
Teotihuacan
Trajan
then Madeira should be no problem. All those games require you think several turns in advance, and Madeira is no different. Some may find it slightly heavier than those listed above, but they're all pretty close to the same weight.

I love all these games too, but Madeira slightly more...

Madeira is heavier than all them mate. Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions. None of those games come close to that grind and weight of the unwieldiness this game presents. It is a big step up on all of these titles. OP, think Agricola only more grindy. Yes the pirates are in the game but knowing when and how to play them is something you learn after a while only.

I suggest you try before you pick up.
No... it's not. Not really. Admittedly it may seem intimidating the first play or two, for some, but I've found, if presented in a clear and helpful manner, that while it may be difficult to do really well, the actual play is fairly straightforward. It's developed this reputation as a brain melter, but the games above are definitely in the same range. They all require making plans over several turns and timing several different pieces to all come together at the right time, whether it be buying your special buildings each phase shift in Ora & Labora, getting the right workers to gather on the needed space in Teotihuacan or arranging your Mancala pieces to both take the actions you need and also collect the Trajan tiles.

I do agree though, as with all games, it is best if it can be played before being purchased, or at least watch a few playthroughs to see if the flow of the game seems interesting.
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Phil Triest
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Relax wrote:
philtrees wrote:
Relax wrote:
If you can handle:
Ora & Labora
AFfO
Black Angel
Teotihuacan
Trajan
then Madeira should be no problem. All those games require you think several turns in advance, and Madeira is no different. Some may find it slightly heavier than those listed above, but they're all pretty close to the same weight.

I love all these games too, but Madeira slightly more...

Madeira is heavier than all them mate. Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions. None of those games come close to that grind and weight of the unwieldiness this game presents. It is a big step up on all of these titles. OP, think Agricola only more grindy. Yes the pirates are in the game but knowing when and how to play them is something you learn after a while only.

I suggest you try before you pick up.
No... it's not. Not really. Admittedly it may seem intimidating the first play or two, for some, but I've found, if presented in a clear and helpful manner, that while it may be difficult to do really well, the actual play is fairly straightforward. It's developed this reputation as a brain melter, but the games above are definitely in the same range. They all require making plans over several turns and timing several different pieces to all come together at the right time, whether it be buying your special buildings each phase shift in Ora & Labora, getting the right workers to gather on the needed space in Teotihuacan or arranging your Mancala pieces to both take the actions you need and also collect the Trajan tiles.

I do agree though, as with all games, it is best if it can be played before being purchased, or at least watch a few playthroughs to see if the flow of the game seems interesting.

Those games mentioned are nowhere near as heavy man. Who are you kidding? Show me which one of those games that have near as much complexity as Madeira please and how so. OeL I've owned. It is a multipathing Uwe game. There is no brutality in it at all. Again Trajan is a point salad that is pretty easy to figure out. Given the games the OP likes I would suggest Flotilla as it is also a very interesting take on a multipathing game with a very interesting flipping of the cards and player board to go after VPs. Much more up his alley and he will save a fair bit of money price wise.
 
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Phil Triest
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jmdiller wrote:
I really like almost every game on your list, so I'll say that I picked up Madeira over the summer and finally got around to playing it a few weeks ago.

I enjoyed it very much, so much so that I pledged for the KS Collector's upgrade. However, I play most of my games with my brother these days and unfortunately, after a few plays he did not care for it. He's a great game buddy and we love deep games, but this one just didn't engage him.

So, sadly, I put my copy in the marketplace and cancelled the KS. I thought about keeping it around, but there are so many great games on my shelf I figure we should focus on playing the games we both like.

So, what I am saying is you should get it. It's pretty neat.

I hppe the KS version sorts out the lack of viability in the Colonies. Tacked on. The nobles are tacked on too.
 
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Scott Seifert
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philtrees wrote:
There is no brutality in it at all.
Quote:
Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions.
What in sam hill does any of that have to do with how difficult it is to -learn- a game, which is what is normally meant when people refer to weight in this context. You don't have to be -good- at a game just to play it. If difficulty in decision making was the criteria, Chess and Go would be the heaviest games on the site.
 
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Phil Triest
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golden_cow2 wrote:
philtrees wrote:
There is no brutality in it at all.
Quote:
Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions.
What in sam hill does any of that have to do with how difficult it is to -learn- a game, which is what is normally meant when people refer to weight in this context. You don't have to be -good- at a game just to play it. If difficulty in decision making was the criteria, Chess and Go would be the heaviest games on the site.

He wants to enjoy the game not just learn the rules WTH... Madeira is nothing like any of he games he has listed.
 
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Kikaidurr
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In Madeira the decision space is much wider than Teotihuacan and Trajan... Just choosing dice you have to sort priorities for dice values, guild refresh, kings demand, and turn order. Then when you place the dice, you have to consider manipulating dice values, do i want to do top and bottom action? Will I likely be able to afford it? Then on top of that you always have to keep in mind guild tiles, changing resources, bonus tiles, different Shipping/colonizing values per round, feeding people, getting rid of pirates.

I agree that Madeira isnt as unapproachable as a lot of people make it out to be.. afterall youre just picking dice and putting dice down.. but it is nowhere near as simple as Trajan...
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Scott Seifert
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The games he listed are nothing like each other! He's got Black Angel and Teotihuacan on one end and Everdell and Heaven&Ale on the other. I don't know what metric you're using, but Madeira clearly lies somewhere in there. I'm a huge fan, it's in my collection, but I don't see what puts it on a hardcore pedestal that the other games don't reach. He even said he -wants- lots of interaction.
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Phil Triest
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golden_cow2 wrote:
The games he listed are nothing like each other! He's got Black Angel and Teotihuacan on one end and Everdell and Heaven&Ale on the other. I don't know what metric you're using, but Madeira clearly lies somewhere in there. I'm a huge fan, it's in my collection, but I don't see what puts it on a hardcore pedestal that the other games don't reach. He even said he -wants- lots of interaction.

All of those games he did mention are multipathing. There is some very dominant strategies in Madeira without adding spoilers here but with some of my comments people may get one area in particular that is a waste of time. Movement on the island of Madeira itself is hard to get your head around too and is just another subsystem within a subsystem of a game system. THese other games are no where near as layered as Madeira. Flotilla has more in common with all the games the OP mentioned. Madeira is a heavy beast. I'd hazard that he would get Agra and enjoy it more as there is plenty of freedom in how to get things done. Madeira is all about being methodical and not wasting one single turn. I can waste turns in games like AFfO or Caverna or Trajan. You waste a couple of moves and you hose the goal you are going after. You don't have enough wood, just one cube shy, you don't get the boats you need etc. Even the priate dice need to be used optimally. Same goes for which noble to take and planning three turns ahead when placing workers on the island etc etc etc.
 
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Danny Perello
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golden_cow2 wrote:
philtrees wrote:
There is no brutality in it at all.
Quote:
Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions.
What in sam hill does any of that have to do with how difficult it is to -learn- a game, which is what is normally meant when people refer to weight in this context. You don't have to be -good- at a game just to play it. If difficulty in decision making was the criteria, Chess and Go would be the heaviest games on the site.
Yes, I suspect Phil has a different criteria for what he considers heavy. Is it easy to score maximum points every scoring round? No way. But it is easy to score something. I actually think the pirates make the game easier... to play, not score well.

Take, for example, Antiquity, a game I do think is quite heavy. It is very possible to play poorly and say, for instance, run out of wood. If that happens and you haven't got a functioning market you are out of the game. Pollution is choking your cities, filling them with graves, as is the famine level that is constantly rising, effectively shutting down your buildings. The other players may be expanding into your territory too, polluting around your cities, increasing the pressure on you to clean said pollution, but only if you have the required building. Yeah, Antiquity can be incredibly brutal. (Wow, I really want to play Antiquity now. )

Whereas in Madeira, if you can't feed your workers they don't die or cease to function, you just take pirates. Don't have wood to upkeep your ships? No problem, they stay on the board and continue to function, you just take more pirates. Don't have money to pay for an action during Phase C? Don't worry about it, just take more pirates. Sure, you could end up with a really, really low score, but as far as playing the game you aren't penalized at all.

As to showing which of those games have the same amount of complexity, well, I thought I already did that. They all require planning multiple turns in advance. If someone wants to do X they first need to do A, B and possibly C. For example, in Teotihuacan, if you want to build the pyramid you first need to gather wood and stone, both by placing several dice on the required spaces, then you need to get those workers over to the pyramid space hopefully without any of them ascending before you get everything arranged. You also want to try to time building the pyramid tiles so that you receive the proper temple advancement bonuses while also making sure you can take advantage of said temple advancements if you advance to a stage that let's you possibly take a tile, if you can pay for it. Never mind making sure you have the required cocoa to pay for all that wood and stone gathering and pyramid building... Anyway, I'm sure you get my point.
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Phil Triest
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Relax wrote:
golden_cow2 wrote:
philtrees wrote:
There is no brutality in it at all.
Quote:
Meeting those goals is tough given the grind of gathering what you need and the limited actions.
What in sam hill does any of that have to do with how difficult it is to -learn- a game, which is what is normally meant when people refer to weight in this context. You don't have to be -good- at a game just to play it. If difficulty in decision making was the criteria, Chess and Go would be the heaviest games on the site.
Yes, I suspect Phil has a different criteria for what he considers heavy. Is it easy to score maximum points every scoring round? No way. But it is easy to score something. I actually think the pirates make the game easier... to play, not score well.

Take, for example, Antiquity, a game I do think is quite heavy. It is very possible to play poorly and say, for instance, run out of wood. If that happens and you haven't got a functioning market you are out of the game. Pollution is choking your cities, filling them with graves, as is the famine level that is constantly rising, effectively shutting down your buildings. The other players may be expanding into your territory too, polluting around your cities, increasing the pressure on you to clean said pollution, but only if you have the required building. Yeah, Antiquity can be incredibly brutal. (Wow, I really want to play Antiquity now. )

Whereas in Madeira, if you can't feed your workers they don't die or cease to function, you just take pirates. Don't have wood to upkeep your ships? No problem, they stay on the board and continue to function, you just take more pirates. Don't have money to pay for an action during Phase C? Don't worry about it, just take more pirates. Sure, you could end up with a really, really low score, but as far as playing the game you aren't penalized at all.

As to showing which of those games have the same amount of complexity, well, I thought I already did that. They all require planning multiple turns in advance. If someone wants to do X they first need to do A, B and possibly C. For example, in Teotihuacan, if you want to build the pyramid you first need to gather wood and stone, both by placing several dice on the required spaces, then you need to get those workers over to the pyramid space hopefully without any of them ascending before you get everything arranged. You also want to try to time building the pyramid tiles so that you receive the proper temple advancement bonuses while also making sure you can take advantage of said temple advancements if you advance to a stage that let's you possibly take a tile, if you can pay for it. Never mind making sure you have the required cocoa to pay for all that wood and stone gathering and pyramid building... Anyway, I'm sure you get my point.

Get hosed by 50 points won't be that fun. Madeira is all about efficiency. To a smaller extent OeL is like that to play well but you know when you are already out of the game by round 2 quite often in Madeira. And to keep playing for another hour or so can suck. The interlocking systems make Madeira the beast it is. I play loads of heavy Euros and I don't think I've played a more difficult game system to get your head around than it. Vinhos might give it a run for its money but other than that I cannot think of a game more punishing than it in the Euro genre.

Trajan is a bunch of mini games, OeL is all about the same buildings each and every game and using the rondell/market to get things done efficiently and on the odd occasion steal your opponent's worker with ale. It is one system interacting with one other system (resources for cards from triggering cards in a previous action) Madeira, as I succinctly pointed out, has systems that interlock with other systems that make up a bunch of sub systems that unite to make up the design. There can be five odd systems intertwining on any given action to get things done making it much more complex depth wise.
 
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Simon Gosalvez
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Hey thanks guys!

By the way, I’ve watched a lot of playthrough for Madeira, and Flotilla is on my « games to watch » list, but it might not be « euro » enough for my taste, I’ll see as more information come out.

This conversation is actually helpful.

It’s reminding me how much OaL and Teotihuacan are great haha, maybe I should stick with those...

On the other hand, these arguments are confirming I would probably enjoy Madeira. I really like games that are relatively simple rulewise, but punishing, with the complexity coming from performing well, Heaven & Ale being a good exemple. I want hard decisions in my games!

I guess I’ll have to find a way to try it before I buy. And for the Kickstarter, a friend backed 1$ to have access to pledge menager so I still have the possibility to go all-in.
 
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Phil Triest
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Bbchat wrote:
Flotilla is on my « games to watch » list, but it might not be « euro » enough for my taste, I’ll see as more information come out.

I am no fan of Wizkids (I have my reasons) but Flotilla looks very very interesting and could be the one design that changes the industry from this year. I've been craving some more innovative mechanics and this one very much looks the biz. Seems to suit the theme too. I honestly think you'd love it given the list you have provided. Flotilla will be THE game from Essen this year for those of us in the hobby proper. Mark my words.
 
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Simon Gosalvez
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Still undecided, but I just played Troyes for the first time yesterday and I loved it. It’s making me think again I would probably enjoy Madeira? The pledge menager is not open yet so I still have time to decide.
 
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