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Subject: Official Tapestry Civilization Adjustments rss

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Jamey Stegmaier
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Thanks to all of the data you've reported from your plays of Tapestry, we're making some small starting adjustments to a few of the civilizations in Tapestry. Please see the following link (or use this image) for subsequent plays of Tapestry, and please keep reporting the results of your plays via the link below.

UPDATE: I've updated the image for clarity.

https://stonemaiergames.com/games/tapestry/



I appreciate Jeremy and Morten for working with me on this endeavor!
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Mr. Big
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Games need more Orange!
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Thanks, just printed it out, hoping to play in the next couple days.
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Nicolau Tudela
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Will the new future Tapestry prints have these adjustments integrated on the Civ Mats?
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Devin Smith
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Aggressive. Are you adding a tickbox to the official submission form for 'new' vs 'old' civs to check the rebalance?
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Rickard Nilsson
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I was going to ask if you could get negative VP, but given the wording from Architects and The Chosen, I assume that to be the case?

Have this occured or been relevant before? Otherwise that would be a good clarification to make.
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Arnaud Fradin
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I wasn't expecting it so soon! I'm glad it's not only VP adjustments, and I think most of the resource adjustments are common sense. On the other hand, I don't know if losing 2 resources will stall the Futurists that much.

I'm curious about the polls, will you restart one from scratch to see if it's more balanced now?
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Joe Rakstad
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Thank you so much Jamey! Appreciate being flexible with the game. I'm anxious to see how the new adjustments play out.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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Excalabur wrote:
Aggressive. Are you adding a tickbox to the official submission form for 'new' vs 'old' civs to check the rebalance?
Yes, that's on the form.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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blazcowicz wrote:
I don't know if losing 2 resources will stall the Futurists that much.
We don't either . So, we really hope that a lot of people will help us out testing and reporting results.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Nardran wrote:
Will the new future Tapestry prints have these adjustments integrated on the Civ Mats?
I don't think so, as it's possible the adjustments will change over time. At most I may include this printout in a future printing of Tapestry (maybe).
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Excalabur wrote:
Aggressive. Are you adding a tickbox to the official submission form for 'new' vs 'old' civs to check the rebalance?
Yep, it's already there.
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Steve H
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Fascinating!

I'm a little surprised that some of the mods include resource gain/losses, but it makes sense.

They all seem pretty reasonable to me. From my experience (not from the giant data analysis), the Nomads, Mystics, and Militants are the strongest of the non-nerfed civs.

I think that losing 2 resources will really hurt the Futurists, although I can't figure out why culture was specifically called out, rather than allowing any 2 resources to be lost.
 
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Jeff Warrender
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I don't mean to be a big poopypants here, but have these changes been tested, and if so how much? It seems like the data on which they must have been based has only just started to arrive fairly recently.

(My point being, if the intent is that this is a proposed set of changes that the community can test, report back on, and further tweaking and refinement will result, that's one thing; whereas if these are an authoritative set of changes resulting from extensive testing, that's another thing. It's fine whichever thing it is, but it seems the OP should say which one it is.)

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Arnaud Fradin
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mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
I don't know if losing 2 resources will stall the Futurists that much.
We don't either . So, we really hope that a lot of people will help us out testing and reporting results.
Will do! Now I want to try them, we've avoided that civ since we've got the game.

I hope J. Kaemmer will adapt his poll too.
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Frederico Ramos
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If your starting civ is the heralds, does that mean you start with negative points?
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James Clarke
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NiceShot318 wrote:
If your starting civ is the heralds, does that mean you start with negative points?
Good question.
 
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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blazcowicz wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
I don't know if losing 2 resources will stall the Futurists that much.
We don't either . So, we really hope that a lot of people will help us out testing and reporting results.
Will do! Now I want to try them, we've avoided that civ since we've got the game.

I hope J. Kaemmer will adapt his poll too.
I think he will - he was a major part of making these adjustments.
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Arnaud Fradin
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mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
I don't know if losing 2 resources will stall the Futurists that much.
We don't either . So, we really hope that a lot of people will help us out testing and reporting results.
Will do! Now I want to try them, we've avoided that civ since we've got the game.

I hope J. Kaemmer will adapt his poll too.
I think he will - he was a major part of making these adjustments.
Glad to read that, I'm still amazed by the amount of work he put into it.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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blazcowicz wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
I hope J. Kaemmer will adapt his poll too.
I think he will - he was a major part of making these adjustments.
Glad to read that, I'm still amazed by the amount of work he put into it.
You and me both .

Btw. is your avatar from Wolfenstein 3D?
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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mortenmdk wrote:
Btw. is your avatar from Wolfenstein 3D?
Doesn't his username tip you off?
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Arnaud Fradin
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mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:
blazcowicz wrote:
I hope J. Kaemmer will adapt his poll too.
I think he will - he was a major part of making these adjustments.
Glad to read that, I'm still amazed by the amount of work he put into it.
You and me both .

Btw. is your avatar from Wolfenstein 3D?
Damn right! My favourite game of the series is Return to Castle Wolfenstein but this avatar is way cooler.
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David Vestal
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I wanted to ask, what considerations and goals are there when making these changes? As I've tried to emphasize to people during balance discussions, faction strength isn't a single metric. For example, in our experience, the Architects have scored some of the highest and lowest scores, which initially suggests they are a "low floor, high ceiling" faction that likely have a high skill cap.

With that in mind, from a design philosophy, how is the SM team trying to balance the experiences and results of play groups of different skill levels or metas? Boosting a civilization like the Architects might improve the play experience for newer or low-skill players, but could make them overpowered for tournament settings in the hands of high-skill players, for example. Is the balancing efforts primarily aimed at the mean?

I'm all in favor of data collection, but one concern I have with the mean scores is that winning scores may be higher or lower in different games as different civilizations or tapestry cards may raise/lower scores for players in the game. For example, while Futurists may have a higher mean score, they may also raise average scores for other players by fulfilling technology upgrade requirements, or may lower average scores for other players by canceling cards like "Boast of Superiority".

The only other reaction I'd have is that I think Heralds can be one of the most "swingy" Civilizations, based on their initial Tapestry card draw. If your first card drawn is Socialism, for example, that's going to be a lot weaker than drawing a first card Wartime Economy. Weakening Heralds might match the average scores, but would feel extra bad for the player who draws an almost unplayable first tapestry card with the civilization. Off the top of my head, would there be any merit to having the point loss relate to whether or not the player plays a Tapestry card over "maker of fire"? Something like "You may play your first Tapestry card over maker of fire. If you do, lose and additional 5 VP" rather than a flat loss of points?
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Matt Smith
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Mysticum wrote:
I was going to ask if you could get negative VP, but given the wording from Architects and The Chosen, I assume that to be the case?

Have this occured or been relevant before? Otherwise that would be a good clarification to make.
The Architects gain VP, not lose it. Only The Chosen and Heralds can go negative.

We still need a clarification if a player starting the game with The Chosen starts at -15 VP. I assume yes, and they would put their score marker on the 85 space.

Maybe we should use an outpost token to signify a negative score? Once they reach 0, they would swap out the outpost for a cube. Just a thought for those of us who are forgetful.

EDIT - Added Heralds.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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NiceShot318 wrote:
If your starting civ is the heralds, does that mean you start with negative points?
Yes, that's correct.
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Arnaud Fradin
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NiceShot318 wrote:
If your starting civ is the heralds, does that mean you start with negative points?
I'm not sure about Heralds and Merrymakers, because it just says "after gaining" and not "when starting"

Edit: ok, then "gaining" is the verb that covers starting with and obtaining later.
 
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