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Subject: Official Tapestry Civilization Adjustments rss

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Eric Hogue
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
So are you guys now arguing against all that data that these changes are based on? It sounds like you are trying to make the case that Futurists are at parity with the other Civs and Merrymakers in particular.
I believe they are arguing that the advantage is not obvious.
 
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Steve H
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
Scion13 wrote:
ErnestoPavan wrote:
But that option is literally worse than the Futurists bonus. And the Futurists bonus is hardly not flexible, as extra steps on tracks and extra resources (1 of every kind, no less) are always good.
The Futurists ability is literally the opposite of flexible. You have no choice in the matter.

And advancing on tracks without benefits is *not* always good. It’s the equivalent of the “X” Science die rolls, which is one of the weakest benefits in the game.
So are you guys now arguing against all that data that these changes are based on? It sounds like you are trying to make the case that Futurists are at parity with the other Civs and Merrymakers in particular.
Woah, not sure where you’re getting that. Someone said that the Futurists ability was “flexible” and that free advances sans benefits were “always good,” two things which I believe are obviously false.
 
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Tony A
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One thing I like about this is that, for teaching the game, it gives clear “non adjusted” civs to use. Once players know the game, then use them all.

Also: I suspect that Jeremy’s work greatly contributed to these adjustments coming out so quickly.
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Genesyx

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sheogorath09 wrote:
Perhaps another solution to the Heralds is to only take away points when the ability is activated, that way you aren't punishing players who are unable to use it (especially if received midgame). Something like At the start of your income turns 2-5, you may spend 4 VP to .... That way over the course of the game you may lose 16 VP while taking full advantage as it's set up now but don't lose anything if you are unable to.
I really like this idea instead of the net -15VP, just because of the interaction with the last military spot, and it seems like a fair scale to use regardless of player count - now Herald players won't be punished for not having good targets to use their civ (more possible in smaller games), which in-of-itself is a punishment of sorts by figuratively having no civ. If I were to play with these balancing factors at all, I think I'll use this variant balancing instead.

Also somehow I missed the Chosen's changes on my 1st read through, but I agree that gaining a 15-60vp (!) boost from the beginning doesn't feel optimal. I mean, the vp boost may be required for a perfectly balanced game, but it sure doesn't feel good on 1st glance when someone begins with 25% of what constitutes a good score.
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Ian
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Weird that some are kinda rude about this update. Some complain about the balance, then complain about the suggested update to tune that. When I got the video game Overwatch, it was tested but not perfect. Updates continually try and keep it tight. Why not keep a tabletop game tight if you can? I for one am thankful this designer/publisher is supporting this game that I really enjoy already.
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Elizabeth
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thephantomhennes wrote:
Weird that some are kinda rude about this update. Some complain about the balance, then complain about the suggested update to tune that. When I got the video game Overwatch, it was tested but not perfect. Updates continually try and keep it tight. Why not keep a tabletop game tight if you can? I for one am thankful this designer/publisher is supporting this game that I really enjoy already.
Completely agree, +1 for Jamey for caring about his games.
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Arnaud Fradin
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genesyx wrote:
sheogorath09 wrote:
Perhaps another solution to the Heralds is to only take away points when the ability is activated, that way you aren't punishing players who are unable to use it (especially if received midgame). Something like At the start of your income turns 2-5, you may spend 4 VP to .... That way over the course of the game you may lose 16 VP while taking full advantage as it's set up now but don't lose anything if you are unable to.
I really like this idea instead of the net -15VP, just because of the interaction with the last military spot, and it seems like a fair scale to use regardless of player count - now Herald players won't be punished for not having good targets to use their civ (more possible in smaller games), which in-of-itself is a punishment of sorts by figuratively having no civ. If I were to play with these balancing factors at all, I think I'll use this variant balancing instead.

Also somehow I missed the Chosen's changes on my 1st read through, but I agree that gaining a 15-60vp (!) boost from the beginning doesn't feel optimal. I mean, the vp boost may be required for a perfectly balanced game, but it sure doesn't feel good on 1st glance when someone begins with 25% of what constitutes a good score.
You're right about the Heralds, and most of all I really don't want to be afraid to try gaining a new civ just because of this change. I'm sure I won't apply the penalty if you get them during the game, but this 4 points cost on activation seems to solve both problems of gaining them later and smaller player counts, or the other cool idea I've read of losing 5 points per activation but drawing an extra tapestry on the first income.

Both ideas could even be thematic in the end, after all Historians have to pay a tile to send a cube, so why not VPs (plus having 2 tapestries to cover Makers of fire would make them more consistent, it feels really poor when your first and only tapestry would do nothing for you on your first era)? And even if you think it's easy to forget to apply during the game, then just do it at the end by counting how many cubes you used and that's it. I hope it will become the official adjustment.
 
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Adam P
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Giving The Chosen straight up 45 points in a 4P game tells me their civ power might be a little boring.
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Michael R.
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thephantomhennes wrote:
Weird that some are kinda rude about this update. Some complain about the balance, then complain about the suggested update to tune that. When I got the video game Overwatch, it was tested but not perfect. Updates continually try and keep it tight. Why not keep a tabletop game tight if you can? I for one am thankful this designer/publisher is supporting this game that I really enjoy already.
I think one simple question shows the difference between Overwatch and Tapestry: did you pay $75-$100 for Overwatch?

I get that it’s a bold, courageous move by SMG to admit they screwed up the balance and offer solutions. I really do. Good for them. But when you’re asking customers to drop MSRP $100 on a product, surely you can understand that people might be a little miffed that the product isn’t in a completely polished state.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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TonyA680 wrote:
One thing I like about this is that, for teaching the game, it gives clear “non adjusted” civs to use. Once players know the game, then use them all.

Also: I suspect that Jeremy’s work greatly contributed to these adjustments coming out so quickly.
It definitely did and he was a crucial partner in the work to determine the adjustment.
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Allen Brown
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ski6913 wrote:
thephantomhennes wrote:
Weird that some are kinda rude about this update. Some complain about the balance, then complain about the suggested update to tune that. When I got the video game Overwatch, it was tested but not perfect. Updates continually try and keep it tight. Why not keep a tabletop game tight if you can? I for one am thankful this designer/publisher is supporting this game that I really enjoy already.
I think one simple question shows the difference between Overwatch and Tapestry: did you pay $75-$100 for Overwatch?

I get that it’s a bold, courageous move by SMG to admit they screwed up the balance and offer solutions. I really do. Good for them. But when you’re asking customers to drop MSRP $100 on a product, surely you can understand that people might be a little miffed that the product isn’t in a completely polished state.
It shipped in a very polished state. The #1 determining factor in who wins is still player skill. I just played Alchemists before the changes and scored 300 points. The game before that, I played Traders and won that with over 250, I believe. The game I played Militants, I made some crucial errors and scored my lowest score.

Point totals are also largely affected by Tapestry draws and interactions between the factions, but player skill is still the #1 factor for winning, so it holds up.

The variance from game to game makes it super exciting to play. I always can't wait to see what happens next game and what combos I can take advantage of.

That said, I love that these changes are being made so soon. It's even more exciting to try Alchemists and Traders again later, but I'm still trying to make my way through all of the factions.

I worry that some of the changes are too drastic, but time will tell. Traders were obviously weak to me when playing them, but that would have been different if we got the exploration draw that I saw the next game, which was 2 exploration tiles available for the Trader with buildings on them.

Some have mentioned that similar adjustments were made in Root, and those were awesome, as well. Tapestry is in contention for my game of the year, and besides Twice as Clever, it's winning that fight right now in a very strong year.
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Lizzieohyeah wrote:
thephantomhennes wrote:
Weird that some are kinda rude about this update. Some complain about the balance, then complain about the suggested update to tune that. When I got the video game Overwatch, it was tested but not perfect. Updates continually try and keep it tight. Why not keep a tabletop game tight if you can? I for one am thankful this designer/publisher is supporting this game that I really enjoy already.
Completely agree, +1 for Jamey for caring about his games.
I think any designer cares for his games.
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Alexandre Derenne
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tilouboy wrote:
I think any designer cares for his games.
Some of the most known designers don’t even play test their games and don’t even bother in participating in its development.

Most designers never respond to feedback on their games.
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James Clarke
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8 Civilizations - No Change - Excellent!
5 Civilizations - Adjust 1 or 2 resources - Excellent!
3 Civilizations - Points awarded/removed - Hmmm, not so great.

I realise it's just a perception issue, but there will be a natural tendency for folk at the end of a game to regard points awarded/deducted as somehow being more decisive and less fair than a subtle resource adjustment. Such post-game reconciling is likely to become especially raw when the adjustment was as brutal as 30 points or more.

Whilst it would've been nice to have an adjustment other than bare points, it's only 3 of the civilizations. So on the whole, a very good job done by the team so far.

Also good that the sheet is a living document which will be tuned accordingly as folk become more skilled with civilizations, and statistics based on only one play won't be as prevalent.

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Ravage Board Gaming
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derenne wrote:
Most designers never respond to feedback on their games.
To be fair to those designers, most feedback is ill informed poppycock
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Arnaud Fradin
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Highland Cow wrote:

8 Civilizations - No Change - Excellent!
5 Civilizations - Adjust 1 or 2 resources - Excellent!
3 Civilizations - Points awarded/removed - Hmmm, not so great.
I don't think that's great either, as it feels arbitrary and can leave a sour taste in case of a close defeat.

So here is a list of humble proposals avoiding these, based on ideas I read or thought of (and I know they probably didn't want adjustements to remember during the game, only for the setup):

- Heralds: gain 2 tapestries on first income (added consistency) and pay 5 VP each time you use a cube on a tapestry (scales very well to the number of players and not punishing if you get them at the very end of the game, plus it could be seen as thematic like the Historians paying a tile to send a cube)
- Chosen: they need a boost on their abilities, something like X points per opponent on the tracks they're first at each income round, where X is the number of players (if you lead 2 tracks in a 2p game that's 16 points, if you lead 1 track in a 4p game that's 48 points, very close to the proposed adjustment even if slightly harder to remember)
- Architects: score X points where X is the number of players per row and column with only one type of income building (I think it should amount to the same number of points and it needs some effort to score them)

I'd like to try these variants, even if I know they could be too hard to remember for what Jamey wants. But at least they require skill and there would be merit to a victory obtained with these rules.
 
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Mauro Gibertoni
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1) Does the shadows empire count as opponent for the civ adjustments?
2) With the adjustment, can the Futurists be used in solo games?
 
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Josh Walton
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TonyA680 wrote:
One thing I like about this is that, for teaching the game, it gives clear “non adjusted” civs to use. Once players know the game, then use them all.
This is what I was thinking. I probably wouldn’t give the Chosen, Heralds, or Futurists to a new player anyway so no worries about out-of-the-rulebook adjustments for them to wonder about. But even if I did, I agree with the sentiment some have mentioned that losing a bunch of points or resources at the beginning might feel bad to a new player so I just wouldn’t use those adjustments. It’s not like they’re going to be playing optimally on their first play or two anyway so no need to adjust for that. Now, if I’m the one using the adjusted civs I will be using the new rules as it’s only a fair handicap anyway.

For me it’s the same when a card in an expandable game like Magic or Lord of the Rings gets errata. If I’m just playing casually with people who don’t know about these things and aren’t abusing the card in the way that got it changed in the first place I’m just not going to mention it.
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Josh Walton
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maurogibertoni wrote:
1) Does the shadows empire count as opponent for the civ adjustments?
2) With the adjustment, can the Futurists be used in solo games?
1. Yes. Edit: yes in solo play, not sure about two player with Shadow Empire variant.

2. I believe the reasoning for not using the Futurists in solo has less to do with power level and more the fact that they’re starting position really messes with the “favorite track” element of the Automa. So the adjustment to them wouldn’t change that. (Not an official answer of course, I could be wrong)
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Tony A
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Highland Cow wrote:

8 Civilizations - No Change - Excellent!
5 Civilizations - Adjust 1 or 2 resources - Excellent!
3 Civilizations - Points awarded/removed - Hmmm, not so great.

... on the whole, a very good job done by the team so far.
Wholeheartedly agreed. It is understandable that not all civilizations can safely receive resource adjustments (at least based on stats so far), but it is great that it is so few that seem to need VP handicaps.

Personally, I simply won't play with those 3, only because resource adjustments feel fairer than VP handicaps and thus more fun for new players. Even then you still get to play with 13 well-balanced asymmetric civilizations which is a huge number and awesome.

I also think it's interesting and ironic that Jamey said in the design diary:

Quote:
By the time we started testing the asymmetric civilizations, I had over a dozen concepts. I figured we would eliminate those that players weren’t enjoying as much and eventually end up with 8-10 unique civs.
Funny enough, after lots more plays, it looks like 8 of the civs needed no adjustment.

There will be some negativity bias here. If Tapestry was marketed with 15 civilizations, it still would have been considered a big number and likely sold just as many copies. But if you say "Heralds aren't working out too well" folks would complain that they didn't get the 16 on the box, so you have to do the large VP handicap.

Other popular games have done balance fixes. Respect to Jamey for supporting the game, and many thanks to Jeremy for helping get some balance fixes out within weeks rather than months or years.
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thephantomhennes wrote:
Weird that some are kinda rude about this update. Some complain about the balance, then complain about the suggested update to tune that. When I got the video game Overwatch, it was tested but not perfect. Updates continually try and keep it tight. Why not keep a tabletop game tight if you can? I for one am thankful this designer/publisher is supporting this game that I really enjoy already.
It's not weird at all, it was inevitable and completely expected. The most vocal of the Tapestry critics are not actually interested in playing it or enjoying it.

I really like most of the proposed changes.
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Ricardo Consonni
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When will the playtests end, and the game be ready for launch?
I've seen some pre-release copies around, but I'm not sure when the real - finished - game will be released.
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RConsonni wrote:
When will the playtests end, and the game be ready for launch?
I've seen some pre-release copies around, but I'm not sure when the real - finished - game will be released.
The games actually already released. The prerelease copies (i.e. copies available before general release) were part of a presale that Stonemaier held, but it was just a few weeks before the official release date.

Prerelease doesn’t mean unfinished it means before (pre-) release.
 
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Ravage Board Gaming
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Scion13 wrote:
The games actually already released. The prerelease copies (i.e. copies available before general release) were part of a presale that Stonemaier held, but it was just a few weeks before the official release date.

Prerelease doesn’t mean unfinished it means before (pre-) release.
Gotta love serious responses to joke posts.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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toliveischrist77 wrote:
maurogibertoni wrote:
1) Does the shadows empire count as opponent for the civ adjustments?
2) With the adjustment, can the Futurists be used in solo games?
1. Yes. Edit: yes in solo play, not sure about two player with Shadow Empire variant.
The SE counts as a player in both cases.

toliveischrist77 wrote:
2. I believe the reasoning for not using the Futurists in solo has less to do with power level and more the fact that they’re starting position really messes with the “favorite track” element of the Automa. So the adjustment to them wouldn’t change that. (Not an official answer of course, I could be wrong)
You're absolutely right .
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