Chris Martin
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[Apologies if this idea has been discussed before - I didn't have the mettle to trawl through the archives. Also, it is supposed to be light-hearted, so please, PR fans, take it in that spirit. If anything, it me saying, "You have conquered, Puerto Rican"! Besides, it's mostly a take on how difficult it would be to distort the ratings. And with that...]

I hate Puerto Rico. Now's not the time to go into why, but I do. That's all you really need to know. Yet, I look at the listings and I see that many people have been fooled into ranking it highly. Most likely, a lot of those people only ranked it highly because everyone else did and they didn't want to appear foolish. So, I thought how great it would be to help all new players out by influencing the stats to make the true, rubbish nature of Puerto Rico shine through. The obvious way to do this would be to create lots of spam accounts. NOTE: I would never advise anyone to do this, and hopefully BGG have systems in place to detect it, but obviously it would be the best way to allow me to show everyone just how bad Puerto Rico really is. If you're squeamish about such things, then imagine when reading the following that instead of "fake accounts" I am saying "like-minded friends", and when instead of "create" I am saying "mobilise", etc. (It's not my fault that my first instincts run to subterfuge...)

So, the key question: how many fake accounts, each ranking Puerto Rico at 1, would I need to create to show Puerto Rico in its true colours? I set up a spreadsheet and determined to find out.

Just to knock Puerto Rico off its top spot - i.e., to place it below Power Grid - I would need to create 298 new accounts, each giving Puerto Rico the lowest possible ranking. Damn... Still, at least creating 298 new accounts is within the realms of fantasy. But to knock it out of the Top 10 (below Die Macher) would require 514 accounts. [I'm not sure why, but the scores on the ranking are different to the scores in the articles. I'm using the scores in the articles, based on the rating graphs, to calculate what I'd need to lower it to, but I'm using the ranking to determine which game I need to get it below.]

To get Puerto Rico below a rating of 8 in the ranking (even though it would still round to 8), I would have to create a total of 637 new accounts - all the while having no one else rank Puerto Rico. To make Puerto Rico's ranking show up as 7.99, a total of 645 new accounts would have to be made (to show up at 1 d.p., I'd need 714 accounts, and to show up for whole numbers, I'd need ).

It gets exponentially worse. To lower PR below 7, I'd need 2,427 new accounts. Below 6, 4,934. Below 5, 8,693. Below 4, 14,958. Below 3, 27,489. And below 2, 65,082. Of course, these are all just to make it literally lower than that number, and it wouldn't show up at the various popular decimal points without many more accounts on top of each number.

Technically, Puerto Rico can never reach a perfect 1 without all of the people who've already rated it changing their ratings to 1 too. Of course, once people saw that everyone else agreed with their secret knowledge that PR was crap, no doubt they would all be happy to change their votes, but I'd been assuming so far that no one was changing their ratings. Anyway, I only needed to get PR to show up as having a rating of 1 to have achieved my objective of making the official rating of PR tally with mine. So: to get PR to show up with a rating of 1 at 0 d.p. (i.e. whole numbers), I would need to create 140,267 new accounts; to get PR to show up with a rating of 1 at 1 d.p., I would need to create 491,130 new accounts; and to get PR to show up with a rating of 1 at 2 d.p. - the Holy Grail - I would need to create a staggering 1,493,597 new accounts (or mobilise 1,493,597 like-minded friends) - with more to add if anyone, anywhere, rated Puerto Rico higher than a 1.

And at this, I cried.
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Nathan Collins
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
:hug:

Trust me friend, it was needed.
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Randy Cox
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Did you know that you can give a rating close to 0. It would take only 99930 people giving it a rating of 0.05 to bring it down to a (rounded) average of 1.

But you'd still have to overcome the Bayesian rules. The reason things don't show the same value in the rankings that they do in the ratings is because every game gets 100 extra votes of about 5.5 added to their score. Thus, a game like Die Macher with only a few votes (compared to PR's 10104 ratings) will still fall behind PR even if it's average is higher than PRs. That's because a game averaging 8.00 with only 2000 ratings is affected more by those 100 "bad" ratings than a game with a 7.99 average over 10000 ratings.

The math will kill you, but good luck.

Of course, you could always join in on the "Drop Agricola" bandwagon to see how it affects a game with many fewer ratings.
 
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Heckle Jekyll
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
chrisjwmartin wrote:
If you're squeamish about such things, then imagine when reading the following that instead of "fake accounts" I am saying "like-minded friends", and when instead of "create" I am saying "mobilise", etc. (It's not my fault that my first instincts run to subterfuge...)

So, the key question: how many fake accounts, each ranking Puerto Rico at 1, would I need to create to show Puerto Rico in its true colours? I set up a spreadsheet and determined to find out.


I would not condone the creating of fake accounts to establish your goal. However, I see nothing inappropriate if say you had lots of separate personalities (multiple personality disorder) - each with its own account. I might approve of that - why shouldn't each personality be permitted to give its own rating?



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David Winter
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
I don't see how anyone could rate PR lower than 2, based on the rating guides, and people who rate games 3 or less or 8 or more without leaving a comment really bug me.

How can you hate a game that much and yet have absolutely nothing to say about it???
 
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Scott Pizio
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Now we know the truth behind http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/238783
 
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
Randy Cox wrote:
Did you know that you can give a rating close to 0.


You sure about that, Randy? It seems to me that any value less than 1 is brought up to 1 by the BGG system.
 
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Jim Cote
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
And how would your life be better if Puerto Rico lost its #1 spot? Would it make you feel better about your game collection?
 
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Paul M
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
dedindahed wrote:
...and people who rate games 3 or less or 8 or more without leaving a comment really bug me.

My ratings are my comments. If you'd like to have more elaborate information, just ask!
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brian
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dedindahed wrote:
How can you hate a game that much and yet have absolutely nothing to say about it???

On the other hand, if you hate a game that much, why waste any breath on it?
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David Winter
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
ColtsFan76 wrote:
dedindahed wrote:
How can you hate a game that much and yet have absolutely nothing to say about it???

On the other hand, if you hate a game that much, why waste any breath on it?


As common courtesy to you fellow geeks, who need to know why its so bad. Numbers alone can be dismissed as shill/anti-shill
 
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Chris Malme
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
chrisjwmartin wrote:
Yet, I look at the listings and I see that many people have been fooled into ranking it highly. Most likely, a lot of those people only ranked it highly because everyone else did and they didn't want to appear foolish.


I just thought I'd write to thank you for pointing this out. I had always thought I rated PR high because I *enjoyed* the game, but on reading your comments, I realise I must have been wrong all along.

Do I feel foolish! Baaaaaaaaah. sheep
 
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Mendon Dornbrook
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
Quote:
I'm using the scores in the articles, based on the rating graphs, to calculate what I'd need to lower it to, but I'm using the ranking to determine which game I need to get it below.


Alas, these are different because there is a shill remover function that takes out values that are purposefully meant to alter the natural rating of a game, such as 200-odd new accounts ranking only PR a 1. *sigh*

As for me ranking the game what I did, I played it a couple dozen times before discovering BGG and hated the game. Then I got on and saw how well it was ranked and totally ranked it high just because everyone else thought it was good.
 
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Steve Bauer
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Of course your action will inspire the tree hugging Power Grid haters of the world to unite and vote down power grid and to double there bet they will vote up Puerto Rico (Now reprinted in carbon neutral packaging) and where will that leave us?

Of course when the powers that be discovered you hade 1.5 million friends you will be stripped of your geekdom and all your votes removed from the system (And you will be banished from the hobby and forced to play only mass market games for the rest of you days)

So I must ask is it worth it or can't we all just get along?
 
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Chris Martin
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dontadow wrote:
:hug:

Trust me friend, it was needed.

Because I'm clearly so distressed, or because you knew I'd be torn apart like a lamb naively lying down with a lion? Both, I suspect.

idiot crow wrote:
I would not condone the creating of fake accounts to establish your goal. However, I see nothing inappropriate if say you had lots of separate personalities (multiple personality disorder) - each with its own account. I might approve of that - why shouldn't each personality be permitted to give its own rating?

I'll be sure to call on my doctor to give evidence when the Boot order comes.

ekted wrote:
And how would your life be better if Puerto Rico lost its #1 spot? Would it make you feel better about your game collection?

It would mean I didn't have to listen to people saying, "But how can you hate it, it's Number 1 on BGG!". And apart from that, I would feel that some sense of the right order of things was prevailing. That all was right with the world, that truth and justice were prevailing, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

dedindahed wrote:
People who rate games 3 or less or 8 or more without leaving a comment really bug me.

Look me in the eye and tell me, hand-on-heart, that you honestly believe that a higher proportion of the thousands of people ranking Puerto Rico 8 or higher gave a comment than did the handful of people rating it 3 or lower. Seriously. Look at the numbers and then tell me you think that it's likely to be the dissenters who are holding back. Sure, I didn't give a comment, but I barely give any comments - only to B2B, if I remember correctly.

Chris__M wrote:
I just thought I'd write to thank you for pointing this out. I had always thought I rated PR high because I *enjoyed* the game, but on reading your comments, I realise I must have been wrong all along.

Do I feel foolish! Baaaaaaaaah. sheep
mdornbrook wrote:
As for me ranking the game what I did, I played it a couple dozen times before discovering BGG and hated the game. Then I got on and saw how well it was ranked and totally ranked it high just because everyone else thought it was good.

See, everyone? If only for these two formerly lost souls, I shall feel that I have done a good job with this post. Out and PR-oud!

sbauer9 wrote:
Of course your action will inspire the tree hugging Power Grid haters of the world to unite and vote down power grid and to double there bet they will vote up Puerto Rico (Now reprinted in carbon neutral packaging) and where will that leave us?

I'm a tree-hugger and I love Power Grid: I always buy environmentally-friendly plants! Sure, I don't win - but the planet does. You know it makes sense, kids.

Just remember one last thing: in view of how ridiculously huge the gap is between Puerto Rico and the chasing pack of Power Grid, Twilight Struggle and Tig & Euph (all better games!), it's effectively impossible for Puerto Rico to ever be overtaken. Are we really saying that nothing will ever be better than this one little game? Perhaps a system is needed whereby votes expire after, say, a year: that way, the ratings of people who haven't played the game in ages and just haven't bothered to change their high rating of it will expire. If Puerto Rico really is as good as everyone says, then that won't affect its position. So, come on PR-fans - you've got nothing to lose ... or have you?

Thanks to everyone who replied, especially those who took it the right way and thought it was funny and possibly a little bit interesting.
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Steve Bauer
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chrisjwmartin wrote:

Just remember one last thing: in view of how ridiculously huge the gap is between Puerto Rico and the chasing pack of Power Grid, Twilight Struggle and Tig & Euph (all better games!).


This is my main confusion about all these types of discussions. How can you say that Power Grid, Twilight Struggle and Tig & Euph are better games as if it were anything other than your opinion? Liking one game over the other comes down to whether you enjoy playing it or not. How can you say with a straight face that I am confused and really like T&E(My least favorite of the 4) over Puerto Rico?

You may have a point that some (or even a lot) of Puerto Rico's popularity is hype but I don't see how that is a problem. Unless someone is gaming the system isn't the game entitled to it's hype.
Also if Puerto Rico has hype don't most of the games in the top 10 have it to? They games that are really being dissed are the more sucsseful games like Ticket to Ride or Settlers that get so much lower but everybody plays.
 
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Chris Malme
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Re: My One and a Half Million Mates and I can Kill Puerto Ri
chrisjwmartin wrote:
See, everyone? If only for these two formerly lost souls, I shall feel that I have done a good job with this post.

Chris, I have to admit I'm puzzled.

If you were American, I could perhaps understand that you misunderstood my sarcasm, but you're British, dude, you should get it.

There are no "better" games. There are games that I like, there are games you like, and there are games that guy over there likes. Anyone who thinks that the overall game rating is some kind of contest to be won by the "better game" isn't getting as much out of the ratings as they possibly could.

Chris
 
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Chris Martin
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Chris__M wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
See, everyone? If only for these two formerly lost souls, I shall feel that I have done a good job with this post.

Chris, I have to admit I'm puzzled.

If you were American, I could perhaps understand that you misunderstood my sarcasm, but you're British, dude, you should get it.

Okay, now I'm puzzled. The wink at the end of the sentence you quoted clearly showed that I was being sarcastic about your sarcasm - eminently British, I like to feel! But you must have worked that out, because if you'd written a post complaining that my sarcastic post "showed that I didn't get sarcasm", that'd be ... well, that'd just be embarrassing, eh? So I'm going to assume that you were being brilliantly sarcastic about my sarcasm about your sarcasm - which, it has to be remembered, was about an original article which was pretty tongue-in-cheek to begin with!

We must be the most ironically post-modern people on the forum.
 
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