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Subject: Is there such a thing as a conquered Minor Power? rss

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Shaun Derrick
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I will come to the title of the thread shortly.
Last weekend I played my first game of HIS. Everyone was a new player - though one other had played part of a game. It took 11 hours over Friday night/Saturday and we still didn't finish. We got to the beginning of turn 6 when a couple of people wanted to stop. We were at MidCon, a UK convention and there were lots of other games to play too.
However, everyone enjoyed the game and would play again. The time was taken up by checking rules. At this point in the game there were three leaders all on 23 points - Ottomans, England and Papacy, the Hapsburgs were on 22 and France on 21. I was the Protestants having a miserbale time with only 11 points. The Papacy had vigourously counter-reformed right from the start; together with some awful dice rolls the Protestant cause was floundering. I can't blame it all on dice rolls - some of my decisions were quite poor too.

Now, back to the question. On turn 3 the Papacy declared war on Genoa and no-one came to their aid! The Pope conquered Genoa destroying the units therein. Now, what becomes of Andrea Doria? Is he a Papal captive? As Minor Powers are permanantly at war with their major Power enemies, I guess the Pope can never get a War Winner marker? Is there any benefit to a power activating Genoa? If they do, are they automatically at war with the Papacy? Can Andrea Doria then be ransomed back to the ally of Genoa?

A few questions which can probably be answered fairly easily by an experienced player.
 
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brian
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Only those powers assigned as potential allies can come to the aid of the minor nation if it is attacked. IIRC, Genoa has no natural major ally power so only playing cards could activate them as an ally.

Dominating a minor power - in the way you describe the Papacy doing to Genoa - does nothing to bring Genoa under the fold of the papacy. In other words, they are not allied, the papacy does not control their units and may not build more units on their behalf. All the papacy accomplished was obtaining the key of Genoa and incorporated that into the Papal realms. Genoa would have still existed as a minor power on the island space of Bastia.

If Andrea Doria was defeated in the battle for Genoa proper, he would have been removed from the board and placed on the turn marker to reenter the game at the beginning of the next round. This is the standard protocol for all naval leaders. I do not think any army leaders exist for the minor powers so there is never a need to worry about capturing and ransoming leaders.

Obtaining VPs for being the War Winner is something that is given during Diplomacy. Since you never have a Diplomacy session with a minor power, they can never grant you VPs.

A benefit to activating Genoa as an ally after the Pope destroyed him is that you now have Doria in your ranks. You can also build units for Genoa though your base of operations is now Bastia not Genoa.
 
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Philip Thomas
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On turn 3 the Papacy declared war on Genoa and no-one came to their aid! The Pope conquered Genoa destroying the units therein.

Now, what becomes of Andrea Doria? Andrea Doria is removed from Genoa and placed on the turn 4 space of the turn track. On turn 4 he will return to play at any free Genoese port (which likely means Bastia in this case). Naval Leaders are not captured.


Is he a Papal captive? No, see above

As Minor Powers are permanantly at war with their major Power enemies, I guess the Pope can never get a War Winner marker? Correct

Is there any benefit to a power activating Genoa? They get control of Bastia and can build Genoese units there. Also they would benefit if City State Rebels restored Genoa to native control.


If they do, are they automatically at war with the Papacy? The Papacy can choose to go to war with them or to end the war with Genoa.


Can Andrea Doria then be ransomed back to the ally of Genoa? No, as he wasn't captured, he would be under the ally's control anyway.
 
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Shaun Derrick
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Thank you for your answers. That makes things clearer. However, if Bastia ia also captured I guess Andrea Doria continues to be placed along the turn track until such time Genoa (or Bastia) are liberated?

Philip, you have said that the Papacy may avoid war with a Major Power that activates Genoa in a later turn -
"The Papacy can choose to go to war with them or to end the war with Genoa."
From my understanding the Papacy can never end the the war with Genoa, so if, say France, activates Genoa, France and Genoa are allied. Therefore I assume that a state of war does not necessarily exist between France and the Papacy? In this case a Major power is at war with the allied Minor Power of another Major Power with whom he himself is not at war - is this possible?
 
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Philip Thomas
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Quote:
That makes things clearer. However, if Bastia ia also captured I guess Andrea Doria continues to be placed along the turn track until such time Genoa (or Bastia) are liberated?


Corrrect

Quote:
From my understanding the Papacy can never end the the war with Genoa, so if, say France, activates Genoa, France and Genoa are allied. Therefore I assume that a state of war does not necessarily exist between France and the Papacy? In this case a Major power is at war with the allied Minor Power of another Major Power with whom he himself is not at war - is this possible?


This is a bit of a glitch in the rules. It isn't true that you can never end a war with a Minor Power: you can end said war if the Minor Power is activated. See rule 22.2 for the procedure on this. Note that if the Papacy chose not to go to war with the Major power who had activated Genoa it would have to withdraw its forces from Genoan territory.
 
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Stefan Zangger
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Quote:
That makes things clearer. However, if Bastia ia also captured I guess Andrea Doria continues to be placed along the turn track until such time Genoa (or Bastia) are liberated?


Corrrect

Quote:
From my understanding the Papacy can never end the the war with Genoa, so if, say France, activates Genoa, France and Genoa are allied. Therefore I assume that a state of war does not necessarily exist between France and the Papacy? In this case a Major power is at war with the allied Minor Power of another Major Power with whom he himself is not at war - is this possible?


This is a bit of a glitch in the rules. It isn't true that you can never end a war with a Minor Power: you can end said war if the Minor Power is activated. See rule 22.2 for the procedure on this. Note that if the Papacy chose not to go to war with the Major power who had activated Genoa it would have to withdraw its forces from Genoan territory.


And what happens in this case: France activates Genoa as its ally and the Papacy goes to war with France, thus keeping its Genoese conquests at the moment.

Possible outcomes of the war:
a) France wins the war. Papacy is now at peace with France and Genoa and must retreat from all Genoese spaces, I suppose.
b) Papacy wins the war. Papacy is now at peace with France. Is the papacy also at peace with Genoa and must retreat??? Or does the alliance between France and Genoa end and the Papacy is still at war with deactivated Genoa?
 
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Philip Thomas
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If the Papacy sues for Peace, it will have to abandon all French home territory captured, but not Genoan territory- non-home territory isn't affected by suing for peace. As the 'At war' marker for the Papacy and Genoa was removed when France allied with Genoa, the Papacy is not at war with Genoa, but remains in occupation of any Genoese spaces it has. France continues to be alllied with Genoa. If Genoa is activated again (e.g. by the Hapbsurgs) then the Papacy will again have to choose between abandoning its Genoese gains and fighting the activating power).

If France sues the Papacy for peace, then it can make the Papacy leave French home territory by giving them VPs. France cannot do this with regards to non-home territory, which isn't affected by suing for peace. France remains in alliance with Genoa and the Papacy still occupies any Genoan territory it has taken. Again, if Genoa is later activated by another power the Papacy would have to retreat or fight.

If the two powers agree on peace in the announcement step of the Diplomacy phase then the Papacy could give France Genoa. You can give away any key you own except for keys of your minor power allies.
 
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